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Kalyx ######

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So I'm 24 and I've had a boyfriend for about 9 months. I was told when I was 19 that I was in fact barren. I couldn't have children. It was pretty devastating for me. I've always imagined myself as someone who wanted children and the news I couldn't have any was pretty rough. Well me and my boyfriend been having sex for about 5 months. A couple of weeks ago we had sex and afterwards he was talking about how he wanted kids. I hadn't told him that I was barren up to the point so I broke the news to him. He was extremely angry about. We ended up having a big argument about it and haven't really seen each other since then. We've been texting but he still doesn't know if he wants to continue this relationship.

So Alice do you have any advice for me? I don't know what I can do to make him feel better. I


I'd consider talking about alternatives such as adoption or consider getting a surrogate mother. If he refuses to listen you honestly might be soykaf outta luck. If he is someone that is yelling at you over something you cannot control you might want to consider other people.



Break up with him. If he gets mad that you cant have kids, who knows what he'll get mad about in the future


I don't know why he'd be so upset. It's not like you kept this from him for years and it's a delicate topic to bring into conversation.
Like the other alice said, you can talk to him about possible alternatives.
Still, even though you might love him, you should value yourself more. It's not your fault to be sterile.
If having his own kids is more important for him than you, then let him go.
He's not your only chance at love. There are people out there that might care and value you for who you are.


>be not me
>date this chick for 9 months
>she's really cool
>I think this is my chance to have a proper nuclear family
>have a couple of kids
>take them camping
>work all day and come home to a warm family dinner everyday
>hear what the kids are up to at school
>watch them grow
>support them as they continue the cycle of life
>"a-anon, I c-can't have kids"

I'm not saying he's right to be angry and shout at you, but personally I can understand why he's upset. You've originally asked how to make him feel better, well if his goal is to have biological kids, your relationship will either slowly break down or he'll leave you right now. I understand that you're upset as well but you should talk about it like adults, instead of texting. I don't know how much of a loser your bf is, but consider if he has other things that may push him to want biological children. Such as relatives or social pressure. He might be able to ignore them in the short term, but it'll chip away at him.


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My condolences, OP. That's damn rough. Fortunately, it's not unsalvagable, depending on the reasons that you're barren.

I can't speak for your boyfriend - I wasn't there and I don't know what he did. But it's understandable that he'd be upset, just as 970 said. He may be shaken, understandably, and he doesn't know what to do. But you need to understand that he feels betrayed. Being barren is no small detail, and you hid something so massively important from him for the entirety if your relationship.

You need to own that. And it always sucks to admit you were also wrong in a messed up situation, but both of you need to settle down and move forward. There's an ancient proverb that says to never let the sun go down on your anger. Instead of resolving the issue you two got into a huge fight and went to sleep that night having hurt and been hurt by each other.

How you reconcile your fight with one another is entirely in your hands, but after you do, think about what you can do about your unfortunate circumstances instead of feeling sorry for yourselves. You have two options - adoption or surrogacy.

If you choose adoption, that means that you're helping out an orphan but it's not your own kid, and as much as we never want to admit it, there is a fundamental difference on a psychological level.

If you choose surrogacy, you get to have your own biological children, but you run the risk of hurting a woman that didn't know how much giving up those babies would hurt. But then again, that's just another risk that woman will take in order to get money. I would recommend surrogacy, personally


Find someone who is less selfish and understands the harm of bringing other lives into existence.


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Why are people so quick to just tell people to break up with the person they're having trouble with? I see it everywhere in the Wired. It's all a variation of "If someone loved you they'd NEVER put you through this", "he just doesn't appreciate you for you", or "you deserve better". It's absolutely awful.

If you think that you should break up with someone because they got angry over something as serious as this then what will you do when you inevitably argue over something absolutely ridiculous? At the end of the day mankind is not a pretty sight to behold. We do harm and will continue to harm those we love until the day that we die, and to see any ill-will in a loved one as a reason to reject them entirely is heartbreakingly misguided.

It doesn't matter if you love someone you WILL put them through a lot of bullsoykaf, they will never appreciate you as much as they could and you sure as hell don't deserve better. That worldview is so arrogant it poisons every relationship you will ever have - don't spread it to other people that are actually looking for help to work things out with the people that they love most.


Then again some people like drama and the appeal to be involved in toxic relationships.
I know several people like that.
They believe you -must- endure all kinds of bullsoykaf for the sake of love.
But guess what. Love alone is not enough to save a relationship.
I'm not saying this is OP's case, but sometimes, straying away is the best option if you care about your sanity.
Also, of course we all harm our loved ones every once in a while. But there's a difference between family and relationship issues.


To an extent. The whole point of a relationship is the hope of becoming family, so in that regard I fail to see much difference.


That's a very wild claim. Do you think that high school kids date so they can "become family" one day?


Different couples might have different expectations.
Even as indivuduals, motivations for being in a relationship might vary.

I'll give you that, for long lasting relationships, having kids and forming a family of their own is the desired outcome most of the time.


We're not talking about High School kids that want to take a chick out on prom night. We're talking about a 24 year old woman who's been dating a man for almost a year and just had an emotional event with her boyfriend over the fact that she is barren.

The eventual commitment is obviously something dearly important to the both of them, and I stand by opinions on telling someone like that that they should just break up with them - it's awful advice.


That's obviously the desired outcome here, which is why I joined in


You were pretty clearly talking about relationships in general, though. You wrote "a relationship", not "the relationship" or "this relationship".


Because to be quite honest high school relationships are pretty inconsequential in the long-run, and any serious relationship has that goal of becoming one in some sense or another. May end I should have used a more specific phrasing, but that's what I was getting at


The problem is that that outcome can't be fulfilled in OP's case.
And you're upset because some people said they should break up if they can't come to an agreement (in which case it'd happen anyway).

And supposing that he doesn't want to adopt or any other alternative. What would be the point in coercing him to stay with her?


Because they themselves are alone and they are angry at cosmos because from their point of view they are sad even though they deserve to be happy while people who don't deserve happiness are living heaven on earth.

I know because I was like that.


I'm none of those things. I'm sorry you had such a bitter past but stop projecting.

Why not give OP a piece of advice instead of judging other posts? What's wrong with you?


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Well, the first thing you should do is talk it out. There is no lie or betrayal here, you told him the truth when the according topic was presented. What comes next - depends on his reaction and the fact if he understands that there is no one to blame for the situation.
Surrogacy/adoption were already mention, but I also advise looking into treatment methods as well, since reproductology doesn't stay in one place and maybe the treatment for you infertility cause already exists. After all, it was 5 years since your last check (I assume, since post said nothing otherwise).
If you really care for your boyfriend and vice-versa I am sure, you will be able to resolve this situation.
Anyway, stay strong and good luck to you.


You can be a family without having children.


A barren woman is the perfect woman. There's nothing more undemocratic and selfish than two people deciding to make a third without the third individuals consent. That third individual could be born into a life of complete horror and abject misery and be expected to be grateful for it simply because its parents decided to fuck and create it. Or it could be born into complete luxury and wealth upon which it'll continue the process of making those under its social standing miserable and poor.

And the fact that there is absolutely no meaning to life, means that the only reason people breed is to keep the feeling of dread that their life amounts to absolutely nothing at bay, by saying "look, I produced this" like it's some kind of great achievement instead of just another useless thing taking up space and polluting the planet, which when it dies will have amounted to just as much of nothing as its parents and whose name won't be remembered in three generations time like its parents.


Never stated oterwise.


Then why can't the outcome be fulfilled? Maybe I'm just really slow today, but I honestly don't get it.



We could go on and on about whether or not life itself has any meaning, but it is undeniable that bearing children is a fundamental desire of man. It is something inconcievably deep - it's a part of our very "soul" in my eyes


So to brush off the heartbreak that comes with an issue like this just because you see it as selfish when seen through your overtly nihilistic lense is rather arrogant


What's arrogant is creating something that never asked to be created in the first place because you can't keep your dick in your pants, or your legs shut.


> it's a part of our very "soul" in my eyes
It's cancerous. It serves no purpose other than to continuing to exist for the sole purpose of simply existing while at the same time consuming resources and life out of everything else around it. That is what a cancer does.

When argued down to the most basic level, people breed simply to breed. They attach meaning and symbolism to it themselves from their own ego to feel better about doing it.


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I'm staggered by the fact that there are people who still believe that a relationship should be "saved" no matter what it costs. OP's infertility is a fundamental issue which has been shown by her boyfriend's reaction. This isn't a quarrel about something minor like whether the lights should be on or off while performing the act of physical love. The only responsible solution for both would be to break up. Adoption might be a "politically correct" option but I seriously doubt that OP's boyfriend is interested in such an arrangement (he's definitely not an asshole because of that) and it won't help anybody (adopting a child for the sake of saving the relationship won't end well for the adopted kid, btw). If OP still wants a long term relationship she should look for a partner who isn't interested in having offspring.


It's not nearly as simple as having a child in order to save the relationship. They have a relationship that they are both working for, and this is a long-term obstacle that they see blocking the path they're already on together.

They don't have to adopt anyway - even without the romanticized, perfect pregnancy period that they may or may not desire a surrogate mother allows them to have biological children of their own, and I see no reason not to greatly encourage OP to do so


>overtly nihilistic

Here was me thinking this was a cyberpunk board. What's next? Scoffing at anarchism?


If you want to. Those things are entirely mutually exclusive to Cyberpunk


Come up with an actual response next time


Because, if OP's boyfriend only wants to conceive naturally then there's no way she could fulfill his wish.


He's definitely an asshole for wanting children.


How so?


So many kids to adopt, if the guy really is concerned with not being able to get one explicitly out of you, he's either dumb or has some werewolf genes he wanted to pass off so they can surface a few generations later.

But alas, I cannot really care to understand the obsession with inheritance, as the only thing I'm interested in passing on I took from thin air (platonic forms).


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Cyberpunk is a genre of fiction, and neither anarchist politics or nihilistic philosophy are required for something to be "cyberpunk". Nothing else to it.


>he's either dumb or has some werewolf genes he wanted to pass off so they can surface a few generations later.

Or he simply wants his own genes to propagate and raising someone elses bastard doesn't appeal to him in the slightest.


"Not required" is not the same as "mutually exclusive."


Honestly, the ball's in his court. You've told him the truth, and it's up to him to decide whether he should stay, knowing he can't have kids, or move on.

Whatever the outcome, your life will be better for it. Either he will stay, and your relationship gets stronger, or he leaves and you see that it wouldn't have worked out.

I can't imagine how you must feel, but stay strong. Like other anons said, if you really want kids, you can always adopt. I hope it works out.


For all intents or purposes here they are one and the same. They both may exist separately and neither is required for the other. They are, by definition, mutually exclusive


''Mutually exclusive'' means that you can't have both at the same time, not that they don't require each other.


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You're absolutely right dammit. Man I'm out of it lately. I was just being stupid, my bad.

At least I expressed my accurate sentiment later


Man, if he is angry at you rather than feeling this pain and disappointment for both yourself and himself, then he wasn't ready for kids anyway.


Which is why he is dumb, projecting importance into something he couldn't even check without some expert' help (who has better things to do by the way).
Unless the kid is a clinical failure. This soykaf has no relevance since aristocracy became irrelevant, and even then it was just made up


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Having children is one of the reasons that life is "life"
You wouldn't exist if people didn't have children.

One of the reasons I want to get married is to have children and raise them.

Have you tried looking into alternative methods of having children? IVF etc.


>My only path in life is reproduction
Sucks to be a brainlet.


We would all be better off for never coming into existence.


A legacy I cannot witness or enjoy for myself is meaningless, as I cannot prove the world exists outside of my own mind.

I live for myself.


You are trying to elevate a value system, or the very concept of 'value system' which is currently (that is, not counting your future dystopia cyberpunk fantasies in), a subsystem of humans having children like you, the owner of this value system.
"better off" doesn't exist outside of kids that had no choice in being born.
Think of me as a compiler throwing your code back at you for violating scopes and namespaces in a silly way.


What you do and do not count your own legacy is a vague area when you count in social structure, peers/friendships, teachers, uncle Sams and so.

After a bit more scouring of the thread, I feel like some people on arisuchan never had a family, neither as a child nor as a parent/adult (I'm not really surprised). As such, they can only think about it in terms of a self-sustaining rational selfishness which avoids variables and reliance on anything that is not deterministically necessary to happen. Stuff like trust and hope. There's also a common lack of this idea: "I don't know what I want to do with my life, so I can pay with my time and effort for things even if I'm sure that they don't serve my goal (which is vague or nonexistent)".

In my experience, rational thinking and rational thinkers are unable to handle situations where the goal is unclear, as rational thinking in essence is intelligence applied towards one well specified goal (state or metric). Life is such an uncertain thing for many individuals most of the time, and is almost always such a thing for the entire population.

For rational thinking to produce some truth about life is like trying to write C# code to
>handle a variable amount (maybe bytes, maybe exabytes) of variable types of data (sometimes facebook dossiers on people, sometimes negative integers, sometimes riemann integrals as objects) so that it's good… we're not sure yet what good is but handle it well okay?
It's a good tool, but if its your only tool, you're also just a good tool with no oversight.


>never had a family
As a child, I had a family, but I never was really of them. Growing up was not a fun thing, and before even moving out of my parents house I had severed most connexions with my family, parents included. Not that they were ever so deep that that was difficult. I feel as strong as I did then that this is a good thing.

Perhaps from this experience I have conflicted opinions: I want kids. Rationally I might suggest that this is some evolutionary hardwiring that simply says having kids is a good thing. But at the same time, I do want it, and I feel sad imagining my entire life without them.

However, I worry greatly that I would be a sucky parent, and there are few things I would hate more than to feel like I had been to my kids what my parents had been to me. They are my only clear examples, my only model to follow, but all I know is to not follow their example.


If you're not worried about being a sucky parent then you have a problem. If something is truly important to you then of course you're going to be worried about it. You're worried because you don't want to screw it up. Don't let that stop you.

If you model your parenting after your own parents' and just assume you'll do it better, you won't. But if you learn from their mistakes and see what they did wrong that you can avoid, you will do better.


All parents are sucky, some of them just get lucky. Children are mostly in the future, which is not precisely predictable with anything less than omniscience; and reality being as chaotic (system) as it is, even one little detail can foul soykaf up. So stop worrying about your inability to set up a child deterministically doomed to a future between the parameters of some vague idea of good, and instead be ready to do, fix, accept and forgive stuff.


You also cannot prove that it exist inside your own mind, so you're choosing one assumption over another here.
Your choice to limit your goals and efforts to things that will produce stimuli to you limits the potential set of things you can do.

>A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit

A blade of grass in a forest.


That sucks for both of you but as someone who is looking to marry for children, it's understandable that he's angry.

I'm surprised the topic hadn't come up before but you should have told him before things got serious. Time is precious.


> I'm surprised the topic hadn't come up before but you should have told him before things got serious. Time is precious.
They've been going out for less than a year. Stop overreacting.


This is a valid point.

At what point does Alice find a relationship to be "serious"?
I've had multiple relationships since early high school last 3+ years each, and lived with the last girlfriend for the majority of those 4 almost 5 years. Even joking about having children was never thoughtfully considered until the 3-4 year mark in any case. Being single now I suppose it is for the better I am without child.

OP, as someone in his mid-20s who would love to have biological children of my own I am empathetic to your boyfriend. That does not excuse his behavior however, and after his cooling off (if he does) an adult conversation about alternatives does feel like the best option. He may accept this, he may not; and you will have to move on and continue from that point in your life.

Hopefully by now your woes concerning your current relationship have been resolved

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