/cyb/ - cyberpunk and cybersecurity

You should look into Hyperboria and the other projects related to it. That's probably the closest thing that's going on right now.

>>477
Interesting stuff, chumrade. I'm looking into it and I may have just found a reason to go full Lain!

>>469
They are working very hard to make it so:

Check out https://ipfs.io

I fathom the idea of buying a small sized machine to use it as a node for Hyperborea-like meshnet and/or IPFS but as of now, for what purpose other than experimentation? I'll certainly be the only interested in my local area and it will be of no use until… until what, soykaf starts to get really out of hand in my country?

This is the kind of community I want.

We should start over as /cybpunk/chan with a .onion from the get-go.

>>487
Tor is wonderful yes, but it relies on centralized corporate/state-owned internet routes one way or another
We don't have a widespread, long range meshnet yet, so we can't exactly make a cybchan on it yet. We would need to continue contributing to projects like Hyperboria to get anywhere with that. It's a bit of a Hoover Dam or a Panama Canal in terms of scale and manpower needed.

I've been thinking we could write a short pamphlet/zine with details on using cjdns and mesh networking in general so we can then print and distribute them around us if we hope to build our own internet. Alas, I am not familiar in Scribus to make it happen.

>>485
Man, go make some friends in your area. For your sake I really don't hope you're fully hikiko. That's bad for ya whether the internet is centralized or not.

I have been talking about a wifi point I (CBurner) am making on IRC has been making a WIFI node like a pirate box.

It is a open wifi point with, 302 redirects and a DNS server that resolves everything to the HTTP server.

At the moment it hosts a small lain website with CIFS and lainzine. people get in there and browse, its great.

>>492
Write one up for the next Zine - would be excellent content for it… and the zine will hopefully be spread fairly widely.

If you have the knowledge share it…

https://zeronet.io is exactly what your looking for. works with tor as well. Sadly a lot of JS

>>528
that runs over regular internet lines
it breaks reliance on servers but not on all the other centralized stuff like the Internet Backbone

Would I2P work alone, without the internet?

>>572
I don't think it was built with that functionality, or why it would have been.

>>576
But could it be adapted to? I wonder if that's possible, even if the adaptations are major.

>>588
i2p is more of a network where you'd have a set destination of who you'really trying to connect to so something like a small network would be rather useless and not anonymous either

you could probably work around bootstrapping without a central server by just having it try a specific port on a bunch of random local ips until it finds another node

you could make it more useful by having more local services, but still you'd need a rather large amount of connected devices to make it anonymous and it still wouldn't be particularly suited to a mesh net because of i2p's long shutdown and startup times, now would the lag be helpful to the network/a i2p network

you could probably also add some kind of built-in service listing to show what sites and services are on whatever fraction of the i2p-like network you could be connected to, since you are gonna be not anonymous and have a rather empty useless network until you get widespread adoption

basically the question is why. they don't really go hand-in-hand but once you work around bootstrapping it would probably work to some extent

look into:
- freifunk
- serval
- other mesh networks that usually partecipate at battlemesh

get cheap used routers, build mesh nodes and try to either hook them up to batteries and tiny solar panels or to electrical outlets you can "find" (roof top of shopping centers is usually a safe bet, but also most mcdonald's and train stations)

kreosan's tutorials on youtube can help you increase wifi range by A LOT, check it out

>>469
important: there's a difference between:
OVERLAY NETWORK
and
"REAL" DECENTRALIZED NETWORK

overlay means that you have your own routing, meshing, p2p connections, adressing scheme and protocols, but you use The Internet as an underlying means of transport. Most decentralized/p2p/meshnets are just that. And most "real" decentralized networks use gateways to The Internet as well.

hyperboria/cjdns
Tor
I2P
Zeronet (never heard that one before)
are all overlay networks.

ipfs is just an alternative uri addressing scheme, not even an overlay network.

freifunk
own p2p network, but connects and routes to the internet using gateways

netsukuku (http://netsukuku.freaknet.org/)
this seems what OP wants. Aims to be separate from the internet and use direct links between machines. Not mentioned in this thread yet, and it's very /cyb/.

i've never heard of serval before. but it seems to only work on phones?

>>1089
>important: there's a difference between:
>OVERLAY NETWORK
>and
>"REAL" DECENTRALIZED NETWORK

yeap, and if you want to build your own mesh network you're going to need to make some friends with people in meatspace…

I mean, I see a lot of people jumping up and down about moving away from the internet, but how do you expect to be contacting anyone over a large body of water? Someones gotta lay that fiber or someones gotta put those radio towers up.

GNUnet, Hyperboria.
Making a meshnet / total darknet will require some help and p2p has its limits too sadly

>>1089
just a correction:

hyperboria is by-and-large an overlay net, it has some mesh-net components networked together on the Internet, along with many pure internet nodes.

cjdns is just a peice of software, and isnt really defined by any network. it has the capacity to work as either an overlay net, a more proper meshnet, or both together.

there are a few other cjdns networks, at least a few of whom network together with hyperboria over the internet, as a more public interface for their local-scale projects, which network on their own lines rather than via Internet.

>some cjdns mesh examples:
https://portlandmeshnet.org/
http://sdmesh.net/
http://www.santacruzmesh.net/

some of these may be dead, but they at least demonstrate that the principal is possible and has been used in practice.

generally however, these meshnets are limited to existance in cities or areas within cities, simply as the infrastructure is far easier to assemble at that scale. the difference between good wifi and laying many km of cables or tower relays. sadly this is a limitation on all meshnets as far as I can tell, at this time.

There's also the smartphones to smartphones p2p.

>Gilga or Pinwheel Messenger, idk about the name. it's gilga on fdroid
>twitter over bluetooth
https://github.com/n8fr8/gilgamesh/blob/HEAD/README.md

>FireChat
>free messaging app for public and private communications that works even without Internet access or cellular data.
>https://www.opengarden.com/firechat.html
>built using MeshKit
>MeshKit is a software module enabling developers to add peer-to-peer mesh connectivity to their app or device.
>Bluetooth, Bluetooth LE, Wi-Fi Direct, ANT and other wireless protocols
>https://www.opengarden.com/meshkit.html

>Rumble
>allows you to share message, however Rumble does not rely on any infrastructure network to work, not even the Internet.
>http://www.disruptedsystems.org/

All of these work and can be found on f-droid.
They're all IM and blogging, but I guess that hooking file server transfers to them wouldn't be hard, maybe having a server set up and a smartphone connected to its WLAN relying the server's info to the clients or something. It doesn't seem impossible.

You can use F-Droid to share apk files via bluetooth, and they might be adding other types of data aside from applications.
>With the recent development around F-Droid Server, F-Droid Client and Repomaker you can now do more with F-Droid. Basically you can add any type of media in your repo
>Great opportunities would be for example ebooks or music.
>Of course other media besides apps on F-Droid.org will have to follow similar rules like apps do at the moment. This means all media must be licensed under a free license like for example Creative Commons.
https://forum.f-droid.org/t/should-f-droid-org-serve-other-media-beside-apps/664

They're also facelifting the UI, pic related. Notice the "nearby" button for summoning p2p.
https://forum.f-droid.org/t/new-ui-ux-of-f-droid-app/260/9

To some extent, I would think that interest in P2P software would drive interest in P2P networking hardware more than the reverse, since once people are running the software there's a more immediate incentive to build hardware to preserve those connections instead of letting them get throttled into oblivion by ISPs.

>>1096
>generally however, these meshnets are limited to existance in cities or areas within cities, simply as the infrastructure is far easier to assemble at that scale. the difference between good wifi and laying many km of cables or tower relays. sadly this is a limitation on all meshnets as far as I can tell, at this time.
I guess going from individual cities to multiple interconnected ones is the main hurdle right now? I wonder how hard it'd be to get municipalities to support such an effort, seeing as some provide free wifi already, but get oppossed by ISPs trying to protect their monopolies by claiming the municipalities are building their own. I don't think it'd be entirely outside the means of two cities to set up a few microwave horn antennas towers between each other.

Personally, I live near Chambersburg, PA, which is located fairly centrally to a number of other places, and that makes it seem like it'd be a good place for building a P2P network outward from. Somewhere like Hagerstown, Gettysburg, or Shippensburg (24-26 miles away) would be one to a few tower hops depending on mountains, so if a local net could be built in two of those places, then connecting them doesn't seem entirely out of the question.

If that proves good for local business, I could see it maybe leading to other close-ish places (~55) like Harrisburg connecting, hopefully with other towns in between. From there it's a similar distance from the edge of that to places like State College, Baltimore, and Washington D.C. Get the network to span a few of those places, and it starts looking big enough that I thing to get Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, or NYC interested in hooking up to it.

I have no idea what it'd take to get to any of these steps, but it seems like a fairly measured set of steps to go from one city to an area including multiple major cities and many smaller ones once you can actually connect two. Then it can hopefully keep building up fractally as the larger areas involved can pool their resources in connecting further out, maybe starting to buy up or lay down some fiber lines.

>>1100
>>1149
I generally don't like using smartphones much, but appreciate that F-Droid could be used by a lot of people more easily, both in general and in places where cell phones are the closest thing a lot of people have to a general-purpose computer. Can any of these work across both phone and desktop/laptop OSes, or if not could one get ported if someone was willing to read up on an API and roll their own library?

You could try connecting local meshnets around the globe with satellites. CubeSats and piggyback launches aren't that expensive. Crowdfund that soykaf or something.

>>1159
>cubesats
Kessler syndrome is very real threat. If it can't deorbit itself after communications loss, or is even unable to deorbit itself at all, it is a cancer. India's "record launch" was one of the most masturbatory meaningless achievements in recent history.

Laser ablation is promising, but powering, and especially cooling those systems is a very difficult problem.

>>1159
as someone who has worked on some cubesat projects, this is not as easy as it sounds.

if you get one up, its not going to likley be in the orbit you want/need, or your options are somwhat limited in any case.

this on top of the fact that the orbit is almost defenitly rather fast and low, which causes the area it passes over to shift with great regularity, and over a given place that you are trying to reach you will only have a brief periodic window where you can actually be in contact.

this on top of the fact that the size of a cubesat much reduces the power capacity, directional control, and antenna size that you are able to employ. each of these factors reduces the amount of data able to be put through a given satellite.

this on top of the fact that its likley that you will have an orbit that does not last terribly long (and propulsion is, while possible, difficult to attain in meaningful amounts at this scale, and risky without extremely good orientation controls), hence in all probability the satellite will need to be replaced with some regularity.

its not impossible, but sometimes it seems people are too quick to jump on the cubesat hypetrain and fail to recognize the limitations of the platform.

>>1153
>microwave hornes

this seems like a cool idea.

if you have to have intermediate relays between cities, you probably will also need to involve county or state government, which adds complication to what might already be a bit of a difficult sell, but its still an interesting idea.

of course, it seems like if this were ''becomming a thing'' at any meaningful scale, ISP's would lobby the governments of individual municipalities and other govenrments to interfere.

it also does not fully defeat the centralization of some things, as probably extra-municipal connections are channeled through a limited number of nodes (towers), but its something.

>>1153
>To some extent, I would think that interest in P2P software would drive interest in P2P networking hardware
I like how you can use cheap or scavenged routers and/or computers to set the meshnets up. I hope that dedicated hardware won't be needed once good software is around.

>I guess going from individual cities to multiple interconnected ones is the main hurdle right now?
I don't think so, as there are no mesh-connected cities yet, that I know of.

>I wonder how hard it'd be to get municipalities to support such an effort
I think it would hassle more than it would help. Maybe find the municipality's tech guy and show him the tip of a $50 bill and ask him for the routers' admin user and pass if that's what you need.

>If that proves good for local business
Is that's missing the point of decentralization. I'd try to get tech savvy people interested instead of trying to impress businessmen or politicians.

>Can any of these work across both phone and desktop/laptop OSes
I think you could have an android vm and use them straight away, and protocols like Wi-Fi Direct that are used by these apps can be used in a laptop.
That said, I think having one network for smartphones and a different one for laptops is a fine idea and I wouldn't say it's clumsy, think people using both twitter and fb.

>>1161
>of course, it seems like if this were ''becomming a thing'' at any meaningful scale, ISP's would lobby the governments of individual municipalities and other govenrments to interfere.
That's one of the reasons why getting involved with them is an error, may be the biggest one possible. They'd send a letter and have the whole thing, or a good part, shut down.

>Peer-to-peer encrypted messaging and forums
>Messages are stored securely on your device, not in the cloud
>Connect directly with nearby contacts - no Internet access required
>Free and open source software
>Briar doesn't rely on a central server - messages are synchronized directly between the users' devices. If the internet's down, Briar can sync via Bluetooth or Wi-Fi, keeping the information flowing in a crisis. If the internet's up, Briar can sync via the Tor network, protecting users and their relationships from surveillance.
But I think it doesn't do mesh networking.
https://briarproject.org/

>>1153
>I generally don't like using smartphones much
Yeah, but they're good for adoption, most people have one, and it's cheap to buy used ones for testing.

I think self-hosted services can make meshnets interesting by injecting some content. Say, webserver W hosts content, nearby peer A gets the content, fara way peer B gets it from A, farther away peer C gets it from B.

https://github.com/Kickball/awesome-selfhosted
>This is a list of Free Software network services and web applications which can be hosted locally. Selfhosting is the process of locally hosting and managing applications instead of renting from SaaS providers.

Dude, is Netshuku dead? Their last posting or anything was from like, 2014.

>>1235
No. One guy is rewriting it and he will be soon (by soon I mean at the start of the next year) release the full working, documented software.

>>1236
Nice. Any resources to stay up to day or is it a kind of waiting game right now? Also is their mailing list inactive as of right now?

A couple dozen interviews
>Founder interviews
>We interview the passionate people who start decentralization projects. What motivates them? What's unique about their technologies? What business model do they use?

http://redecentralize.org/interviews/