/cyb/ - cyberpunk and cybersecurity

>>3345

Most of us, are nervous not so much about the present ( which we are at some extend) but about the future eventuality that this slippery road leads to. Privacy, freedom, anonymity aren't your value and it's your choice. The problem come when the future indicate that totalitarianism could be enable by your refusal to adapt to the fact our society are using our data to profit from us and to arm us. When you're informed about this have read the fact of what is happening and still refuse to do anything even the most meaningless change, you are giving them your approval and I cannot tolerate that. We shouldn't have to hide, we shouldn't have to talk about our privacy being at risk it's a human right essential to democracy with out it everything crumble to the ground. Sorry if I sound mean but there is multiple thread on the image board about it plus a lot of argument on the internet itself. I shouldn't be telling you why it's important but you should tell me why it isn't.

>These adversaries aren't really that big, and the means to some end you protect are just means to some end. Do you even know or have that end? When was the last time you've been empty? Did you forget what the world looks like then?

I'm sorry what?

>>3345
>Why are you so nervous about your freedoms and your privacy, Arisu?
Because if I have nothing to hide, no-one has any reason to snoop.

I had a discussion with someone about my paranoid views of the world and he said to me "I don't understand why you value freedom so much." he is willing to accept control because of the security it gives him.

>>3350
It's safe to assume then, you don't have any money random hackers might want to steal either? No offense, I don't either.

>>3349
>but about the future eventuality that this slippery road leads to
You touched on my point here. How do you know this future? You can't be certain of this future and epistemologically honest to yourself at the same time. This future is a bet on your part at best - should your bet be right, you still can't know if you have a place in that future. Or if your place is on the side you're expecting it to be.
>We shouldn't have to hide, we shouldn't have to talk about our privacy being at risk it's a human right essential to democracy
Why is anything "should" or "shouldn't"? Where are these values, where do they come from? Every baby is born a blissful skeptic/nihilist, when do they gain values, dogmas and meanings?
'Rights' and 'democracy' are ideas like 'pi', 'fun', 'three' or 'mind'. You can't hurt ideas and you can't take them away; but even when you have an idea you can't touch or eat or sleep on them. They are just shapes of nothing that you can fit on everything or nothing by will or based on mood. We'll probably never understand them well enough to tell if anything is or isn't the idea we have in mind.

>without it everything crumble to the ground
I don't feel anything about this. Some say I should, but they can't tell where that 'should' comes from. Things have flaws and want to die to be born again without them, don't they?
>I'm sorry what?
I mean, we're speaking of a few million people who have plans and ideas for some future you disagree with. Most people simply ignore them. How well can they execute it? If the plan is out of control, how well can a plan that nobody supervises fulfill itself? How is this huge compared to "everything would crumble to the ground"?

>>3350
How is this relevant? Is there some kind of strategic/tactical game going on in the background? If so, how important are these in winning or losing the game? Lives barely matter, how does some specific aspect of some game in these lives matter so much?

>>3351
How does control give security? Wouldn't that depend on the insight of the controlling thing? Also, what security does a person without values need? You could say such a person is free of values, but he doesn't value this freedom either, that's how he's free of values in the first place.

I'll probably never know.

>>3355
>that cheap teenager nothing have a meaning philosophy

First you grow up and mature. Than come back to this board.

>>3359
You seem to confuse me with an existential nihilist. I probably was at a stage long ago, but then reinvented epistemological nihilism and took an express train to pyrrhonism from there. Now I simply don't form beliefs based off impressions, which means I don't form any. (If that seems to contradict with what I say in the thread, think of it as part of a what if scenario.)

The "growing up" you mention seems to be a kind of final all-in bet on a small set of goals, values and beliefs, and once people make it only breaking their family, career or life in half makes them rethink. You'd think a mature human being is smarter than that, but ripe is just a step away from rotten. Same with graduates who stop learning altogether, and just apply what they know until some new guy proves them wrong.

I feel like Arisu is this slow and stale because Arisu is just a specific generation of lainchan that believes roughly the same, and thus has nothing new to say or do. I'm also kind of disappointed that nobody jumped on >>3360, would have been a funny time.

>>3355

How do I know such a future? Because it is already happening in other country. China is best example but it also happened before. Before the rise of Hitler, there was a country don't care to recall which one but they were asking to specified there religion to the citizen. Guess what, when the Nazi found this data they could hunt jew with more ease. The internet do the same we are just waiting for someone to use it against us. I'll give you this, it's true i don't know which side i will be at the end but at the present moment i know which one i don't want to be and that enough for me to pursue my ambition.

Rights and democracy cannot be compared to fun, three and mind. They are more then idea people embody them and live by them. They enable us to seek something more righteous not only to us but others too. They give us hope and better future does that mean they are the only solution? No of course not but at the moment it is what give us hope and let me tell you hope isn't like you said ''nothing'' but it help us move forward. It doesn't give us food or a bed but it let us continue for seeking it, maybe not today or tomorrow but someday.

I don't believe we have reason to be alive and believing that we are some special life form is ridicule to me. This is why values, ideas, ethical code are important because it help us define who we are for our self not for a god or other but create our own meaning in life, but you are just puking none sense like idea mean nothing, your nihilistic belief make you say unreasonable things. Whether you're feeling something or not doesn't mean the world take your point of view, the "should" you are talking about is our nature of not wanting to be dictated to be controlled of the unfairness of it all. My point of view isn't the world in itself either like you describe but a conflict in which are very own right are starting to be used against us. Sorry again if i sound piss off but talking to some who says "nothing matter why should i care" You're trying to make people convince you. Again I don't have to prove it to you, the fact are already establish but prove it to me that i shouldn't care.

Those who doesn't move don't see their chains and so are you.

>>3365
>They are more then idea people embody them and live by them.
People also embody fun, three and mind. Those things aren't anywhere. You can't pour a glass of fun or throw a three. We project these things on whatever is actually there, but nevertheless these projections we make have a huge impact on what we do - to be precise, _we_ have a huge impact on what we do.
How is democracy different? You can't pour a glass of rights, you can't throw a democracy, just project them on things that are really there. You project it on groups of walking bags of flesh that build houses, grow food, engineer machines and go to insane lengths to be able to project fun onto something. It isn't democracy or rights that give us hope and let us do great things, but our ability to project things that aren't there onto things. This helps us regulate our actions, and can even fool our emotions and instincts, allowing us to break, abuse and keep a distance from our animal behavior. Some people might be projecting rights and democracy, others might be projecting communism, some are projecting fun, a great and lasting legacy, 420 love and peace vibes or a world of knowledge and progress. It's not the projected image that gives hope or moves people forward, just the ability to project. Even the wrong projected image might make you do the right things to move in a direction that you can project "progress" or "success" on. But no matter how great a tool such projection is, at the end of the day it's just a tool inside your head. Ideas. (Funnily enough, "idea" is just another projection, and so is "projection". So what's there, really?)

>This is why values, ideas, ethical code are important because it help us define who we are for our self not for a god or other but create our own meaning in life
So you're saying that values are important because your value of "create our own meaning in life" says so? Can you pinpoint something that isn't a value, belief or ideology that somehow support "values and "own meaning" or is it just circular? Sure, these… ideas and projections are very useful according to some goals, values and ideas. Impressive even. But does the world end where the reach and limit of these things do? Aren't these tools of circular logic limited?

>but you are just puking none sense like idea mean nothing, your nihilistic belief make you say unreasonable things
[See last paragraph]
>nihilistic belief
It's not a belief, it's a lack of certain categories of beliefs. It's also not nihilistic, it's skeptic (read: pyrrhonist).
Being "reasonable" presupposes common, set goals. Without such goals, the actions of a person might seem totally reasonable or batsoykaf insane depending on your point of view (read: your goals). Belief that such common goals among humans exist is a category of beliefs I don't have.

>the "should" you are talking about is our nature of not wanting to be dictated to be controlled
Well now, as some of you already point out in "cyberpunk is now" style threads, most people don't seem to mind. Perhaps "people don't like to be controlled when it's inconvenient" would be a less wrong belief. I also don't see "human nature" anywhere unless I project it into humans. I understand its a figure of speech, but is everyone else also aware that it's just a figure of speech (or idea) and not an actual object?

>some who says "nothing matter why should i care"
Let's not project things into my posts that I didn't say. Or if you really want to, go ahead.

>You're trying to make people convince you. Again I don't have to prove it to you, the fact are already establish but prove it to me that i shouldn't care.
Your projection seems to be pretty off there. I started a thread and keep posting in it to make Arisu aware of the possible circularity in her values and reasons. I don't really care if Arisu throws away or keeps her values as long as she sees the bigger box of absolutely everything in which her values and ideas sit. (The one without projections and realities augmented with ideology and such.)

>Those who doesn't move don't see their chains and so are you.
Do you believe that people who see chains on themselves instantly struggle to take them off, and bite their limbs off if they see no other way? This rather sounds like a trapped fox or wolf to me. Do you assume that anyone you project chains on and isn't struggling remarkably hard to get them off are unaware? Are those chains really there? Are you sure they aren't just keeping them on as tools to use?

I'm sure that the unreasonable nonsense I puke and the questions I make are factually wrong and all, but who is in chains here? They guy confined to a few rooms of reasonable and 'correct' thoughts and attitudes, or that idiot who can hang around with him in his room when not exploring all the 'wrong' thoughts out there?

>>3366

How does one embody the number three? or even mind? fun i could understand but the number three, mind? I agree with democracy we do not need it to do right but our rights is hundred of years of collaborative efforts to change society and you would like to throw it out of the windows for what reason? what is the point you're trying to reach?

>This helps us regulate our actions….at the end of the day it's just a tool inside your head. Ideas.

After writing huge paragraph this I've finally come to understand. You're writing the definition on what idea do. Something, such as a thought or conception, that potentially or actually exists in the mind as a product of mental activity. So what your point of all this? Enlighten me.

>So you're saying that values are important because your value of "create our own meaning in life" says so?

We all have value, we all does. My way of thinking about it doesn't make it important it's important in itself. If it is possible to not have any I'll be impress because I've never eared of such person even criminal have some. Yes, I do say value are important what kind of men or woman are you if you don't have any value? That mean you don't respect,
have no acceptance, affection, Accountability, Ambition, Attentiveness, Commitment, Compassion for example?

>Can you pinpoint something that isn't a value, belief or ideology that somehow support "values'' and "own meaning" or is it just circular?

Three. Have you ever see someone embody the number three or talk how the number three is important to our society in the political landscape I haven't. Joke aside i didn't say MY way of living was to take as a general stand was just making a comparison with what you were trying to say was nothing we do as importance or weights because it's a projection of our own mind which it is but it doesn't mean there is no consonances or weight or importance in the world. What do you mean by circular?

>Aren't these tools of circular logic limited?

That's an interesting point your making. I don't know, but I would say no in the sense that we always evolve so does any idea of the past, present and future to come.

>Let's not project things into my posts that I didn't say. Or if you really want to, go ahead.

Then stop for playing and say it straight forward.

>Your projection seems to be pretty off there. I started a thread and keep posting in it to make Arisu aware of the possible circularity in her values and reasons

Then say it. It not fun or pleasant to discuss with someone who hide and doesn't expose what kind of answers he's trying to reach. If circularity you mean starting point all over again. Sure why not? like I said idea developed, evolve, transform all the time sure we probably we'll get there but at one point god know when it will evolve in something else like any idea.

>I don't really care if Arisu throws away or keeps her values as long as she sees the bigger box of absolutely everything in which her values and ideas sit. (The one without projections and realities augmented with ideology and such.)

What you just said sound like your a savior. What is this bigger box of absolutely everything in which her values and ideas sit?

>Do you believe that people who see chains on themselves instantly struggle to take them off, and bite their limbs off if they see no other way?

Then tell me why should i keep them? What does chains do but restrict me?
I don't want to live with chains and so are a million of other people. Does it mean you have to take it off a millions of other people don't. Take a sit and stay there no one blaming you. But if you are here to propose nothing but show us a bigger picture of nothing because you didn't say a single thing. Stop playing the all mighty savior with all the answer to our problem you are not that clever.

>I'm sure that the unreasonable nonsense I puke and the questions I make are factually wrong and all, but who is in chains here? They guy confined to a few rooms of reasonable and 'correct' thoughts and attitudes, or that idiot who can hang around with him in his room when not exploring all the 'wrong' thoughts out there?

I would be please to explore idea with you, but for the moment you're not helping the case. What I'm saying is you didn't raise to the point of exploring new idea that Arisuchan could potentially take off from. You've been writing a paragraph that summer up what ideas are. You're criticizing that value and belief are circular which they are and they also evolve. What i see being circular is what you're trying to convey to this conversation.

Stating the obvious and questioning it, isn't what i call exploring new idea which we're suppose to be sit on.

>>3366

>most people don't seem to mind.

Because most of them are so brain wash they cannot see how horrible it's getting and it apply to a lot of different things. Whether they mind it or not as nothing to do with the fact that something is wrong.

>"people don't like to be controlled when it's inconvenient"

Inconvenient?? What do you find convenient from being control?

>I also don't see "human nature" anywhere unless I project it into humans

What the fuck? Again you see or you don't is irrelevant. The world doesn't change because you decide to refrain yourself to see human nature somewhere. Human nature is still there like it or not.

>>3368
>Because most of them are so brain wash
They could entirely be, but they don't question it, they're kinda certain they are sober and have clear thoughts. You don't seem to question yourself or people who share your view of "something being wrong", you probably also feel like you are sober. A recipe very similar to the "brain wash". What better reason to question yourself?

>Inconvenient?? What do you find convenient from being control?
Google is doing a pretty convenient form of control that the vast majority accepts or even likes. Go out to a street and start asking people if they mind the chains gmail and android puts on them.

>Again you see or you don't is irrelevant.
That is my point. What _anyone_ sees or projects is irrelevant. The world indeed doesn't change regardless of what people decide to see or refrain from seeing. Even if everyone projects human nature into whatever is actually there, human nature will remain patterns they attach to it in their heads, it still won't be there.
You seem good at questioning me. Question everyone else including yourself while you're at it and you'll understand my posts.

>>3367
>How does one embody the number three? or even mind?
Minds form in humans (and maybe certain animals or AIs).
Three rocks sit on a hill. If you have no humans (or AIs) to observe this, there is no "three rocks", just rocks. Or heaps of subatomic particles, or whatever. You need a human observer to interpret that heap, separate it into three distinct parts of rock and one background of non-rock, and project the idea of "three" on all of this. The rocks are there, but the "three" is just in the head of the observer. Just like "metabolism" or "rights".

>you would like to throw it out of the windows for what reason? what is the point you're trying to reach?
>I started a thread and keep posting in it to make Arisu aware of the possible circularity in her values and reasons. I don't really care if Arisu throws away or keeps her values as long as she sees the bigger box of absolutely everything in which her values and ideas sit.

>Something, such as a thought or conception, that potentially or actually exists in the mind as a product of mental activity. So what your point of all this? Enlighten me.
That it _only_ exists in the mind. The world (without projections) is what the mind exists inside of, not the other way around. The world influences the mind, the mind only influences the body insofar as the body lets itself be influenced. You can't make cuts heal by projecting/thinking it is healed; the mind has to adapt projections to reality well enough to treat the wound. The better the projection, the more it looks like reality. A perfect projection is reality itself, but then you aren't projecting anymore.

>We all have value, we all does. My way of thinking about it doesn't make it important it's important in itself.
Most minds have values and so values influence most minds. But values, like the number three, are inside minds and at best influence minds. They are way less 'important' (connected, relevant) than bodies, which influence the world - in part by hosting minds to make their own behavior follow patterns. Values and importance are just two of many tools to implement this "mind" thing.
>What do you mean by circular?
You can value your freedom, your skills or your memories. They are important to you because you make the arbitrary choice that you value them high. These have value, value "holds them high". Some things are just means to an end; you might not care much about Tor in itself, but it helps you be free so you do. Value hold freedom high, freedom holds Tor somewhat high. What hold value high? We've already seen that freedom is held by an arbitrary choice of value, so it can't hold the concept of value, it's standing on it.
You can't lift the chair you're standing on, you have to get off, find a ground to stand on and then you can lift the chair. You also can't lift yourself off the ground by grabbing your hair and pulling it. In a similar fashion, freedom can't lift 'value', and 'value' can't lift itself either.
So unless there is circular reasoning involved, there must be something more fundamental than 'value' which holds 'value' up. (e.g. ??? holds 'value', 'value' holds freedom; otherwise it's circular: freedom holds value and value holds freedom, in truth neither is valuable nor free).

>That's an interesting point your making. I don't know, but I would say no in the sense that we always evolve so does any idea of the past, present and future to come.
Evolving involves changing yourself. When do you think will values like freedom or ideas like democracy become a burden to evolution, something that needs to be changed or removed entirely to evolve on? Will people throw those away to evolve further, or will they let these become the box that defines and confines them? Just look at where corporations could go without those two, yet they are confined by their value of seeking profit.

>What you just said sound like your a savior.
I don't think I'm saving anyone I'm just bored and make people (who are willing) rethink stuff.
>What is this bigger box of absolutely everything in which her values and ideas sit?
Nothing. Or maybe everything. Those two mean pretty much the same anyway.
To help interpret this, choosing an approach or a point of view is anchoring your view around a specific element of everything; Human minds are already forced to have one such point of view. Choosing your values and remaining reasonable with them in mind is anchoring yourself near the previous anchor again; choosing your preferred box in the box your existence put you in. Initially a chain that helps you climb and look around, but eventually a chain that pulls you back.

>Then tell me why should i keep them? What does chains do but restrict me?
Most chains are two ended (handcuffs aren't). You can drag the thing that is dragging you. For example, a monarch might be powerful, but if everyone below him starts to pull, he's gonna get ripped apart.

>Stop playing the all mighty savior
Stop projecting that I'm a savior and I won't seem like one. Or don't, I don't care.

Fun fact: this post if full of projections. It feels like talking a foreign language. I'm running out of pretty Shiki pictures.

>>3371
Now we’re starting to touch what you are trying to convey to us.

>You don't seem to question yourself or people who share your view of "something being wrong", you probably also feel like you are sober. A recipe very similar to the "brain wash". What better reason to question yourself?

I do question myself but I want to get something out of it. If I don’t get anything out of it what the point of questioning? I don’t question people that share my views because we already for the most part knowledgeable on the issue. If I were to be question on economics there might be issue that I am not aware about, that would require me to learn to see the chains around me. Again people don’t know not because they refuse to do so but because conveniences gain them and it hard to go back like drugs addict. Yes they feel sober but we cannot blame anyone to not know anything we live in an era of secret more than ever is it easy to hide and fool the world. I’m probably brain wash on something but as long no one show me, someone that already found answers, fact, solution I will remain brain wash not because I want to but because I'm unaware.


>Google is doing a pretty convenient form of control that the vast majority accepts or even likes.

Unaware for the most part. Not knowing the consequences of our action is also the problem. Being ignorant is a blessing. Yet went you know google is helping dictatorship in China to remain in power, or that they track history, location, subject, education, work about you also when dev show you how much this data can go back in time. Core dev quitting because they don't want to be part of what google is doing. Most people don’t stay stone cold about it there is reaction from them. The problem happens when it about time to found solution. Google is hard to replace, this is why if more people work about it, things will change. Not easy I agree but still is something we can all set a common goal to if we all want.


>Even if everyone projects human nature into whatever is actually there, human nature will remain patterns they attach to it in their heads, it still won't be there.

I don’t agree if i understand correctly. It’s there, as long as human are there. Human nature won’t be there the day that human will cease to exist. In other word it's pointless to think that way it's doesn't provide you insight but make you take a step back.

>Stop projecting that I'm a Savior and I won't seem like one. Or don't, I don't care.

>I don't think I'm saving anyone I'm just bored and make people (who are willing) rethink stuff.

>I don't really care if Arisu throws away or keeps her values as long as she sees the bigger box of absolutely everything in which her values and ideas sit.

You see in a very narrow way. Your Epistemology is making you blind because not knowing "why" is sufficient reason to denied it. There for you believe that passing this reasoning to us is what will make us transcend as long as we sees it.

Here is what I understand about your way of thinking. Nothing is true because we project everything. You mix ideological concept and logical one. Three is a number the most logical concept we know. It’s so logical that it never ever change since it’s discovery. Freedom is a concept that evolve it didn’t mean the same thing back in 1600 than today it’s similar but it’s transforming with time, we can also question it very own nature philosophically speaking, not numbers. You said that value are circular, people indeed don’t know where they came from they know it’s important because they were teach to them or they grow up being told so. It doesn’t change the fact that these value have a reason to exist. They change entire society, culture, through every single era of humanity. Most importantly they have existence in our biology, man kind don’t like freedom simply because it’s convenient, we aren’t animals, we are, but social one. Primate have social structure and we are the one with the most complex. we don’t have a hive mind. We are individuals. So no matter how much you want to believe that freedom, as example, is a projection of our mind. Our history, biology give this value it’s importance not because we projected it but because it was written inside of us from the get go.

You’re still right in some sense. We project thing that aren’t real and logical. Doesn’t mean they mean nothing. You will never know the why values exist but always will know how. Not knowing doesn’t mean not existing.

>Fun fact: this post if full of projections. It feels like talking a foreign language. I'm running out of pretty Shiki pictures.

Have you made a robot do the thinking of this text? No, you did there for you put yourself in this text like it or not. What you are projecting in this text is what i responded too I didn't create it, I even quoted you. You don't have anything but skepticism about concept that you can't fully grasp your head around. Which is enough reason for you to dismissed it. There is a reason why Epistemology is almost and always is irrelevant in modern era. It doesn't help. I don't want to change you or your belief, I can't agree with you and i never will there is no point to think like that for me and only me. Problem that i stand for will still be there it won't solve anything. It's just fun to theorize about the impact epistemology can have it's fun to think about but it's limited. I hope you found people thinking like you here.

>>3373
All this time spent to respond to you for this. Disappointed honestly.