/q/ - arisuchan meta

Please use >>>/q/ for the drama bullsoykaf, thank you.

fuck off glitterboy

I guess we're both winners because we also have the sort of people we want.

>>557
Agreed, its bloody lovely here, we have the people we want,

Hey, I know you're not speaking in good faith but this seems addressed to me, so I'll say something.

> Unfortunately, junk & co can't find their own userbase without riding our coattails by redirecting .org to their .jp site and using a domain name that's bound to cause confusion.
I'm sorry if you were confused by this. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that anyone was actually misled - the boards look completely different, there is different CSS and we have a manifesto explaining what this is about on the homepage. Plus, almost everyone was talking about what happened afterwards.

Furthermore, people are not traffic. This whole idea about "redirecting traffic" misses the point that at the end of the day, our users are the people who type lainchan.jp into their browser and choose to make threads here. If you think that we can seriously get users in the way you're suggesting, it's more telling of what you think of them than us.

We changed the board links to make a statement. Some of you on applechan got offended by it, but nobody was hurt. Nobody was fooled into contributing. We changed the links because it was more powerful than simply making a thread on applechan, which was likely to be deleted. Anyone can make a thread.

>Additionally, they claim the zine as their own even though many real lainons from .org contributed.
I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with this idea about "real lainons" and claiming the zine as our own. However, I can tell you that no author on lainzine 4 has contacted me with their discomfort. People have continued to send in pieces (I believe there are 7 now, but I haven't gathered all of them in one place yet), and some have even thanked and congratulated me for my actions.

I do not mean to say nobody has reached out to me to for my reasoning. But I do mean to say that nobody who has done so holds the views OP does. I have only found understanding in the people who made an honest effort to speak with me and understand my position.

I would like to conclude with this question: if we are a rip-off, why did the founders of lainchan pick this site over applechan? Why has applechan done nothing but attempt to copy projects of ours? Because of our actions, they are making a radio, making an archive*, making all some of the boards we brought back, downloading our CSS, and asking for our source code.
*hasn't happened yet

Why do applechan users continue to act like a domain and image that was bought is somehow the original?

>>559
>Anyone can make a thread.
And that's why that's what you should have done. Instead you chose to abuse your mod powers.

>which was likely to be deleted
Bullsoykaf.

>We changed the board links to make a statement
It doesn't matter why you did it. It was wrong. Same as deleting the server.

>I have only found understanding in the people who made an honest effort to speak with me and understand my position.
Of course, because you tell yourself everyone else is acting in bad faith. You found at least me who spoke with you and told you, in no uncertain terms, that what you've done is reprehensible.

>why did the founders of lainchan pick this site over applechan
Because everyone hates him for deleting the site and this is the best he can do to reclaim his former glory? Let's not forget that right after you made this place he went and asked Appleman for a mod position. Let's also not ignore the, very old, mods who didn't side with you.

>Why has applechan done nothing but attempt to copy projects of ours? Because of our actions
You give yourself far too much credit. This is how communities work, people step up to fill the gaps. You guys (i.e. your clique, i.e. 90% of the people here) filled a lot of them in the past but then you went and did this and insisted on filling them with advertisements for your own site and people didn't like it so they replaced you in no time. If you'd have played for the team instead of taking the myopic route the fact that you did so much for us would have helped you win people round, but taking the myopic route has been the story of this site.

Lainchan has changed, nobody would deny that, it's grown and evolved as all things must. Did you really think you were so special because you got here first?

>asking for our source code.
FOSS is bigger than any of this.

>Why do applechan users continue to act like a domain and image that was bought is somehow the original?
A) Because it is.
B) It's not about being original. It's about 90+% of the community choosing Appleman over you. I doubt you think that number's accurate, because you shove your head in the sand and ignore things whenever they don't go your way. Just like you ignored me telling you I don't agree with what you've done.

>>565
>it was simply wrong
When I hear statements like this, I hear an excuse to be cruel to others without self-reflection or any effort to understand them. I see the rapid scurrying for principles to justify self-gratifying cruelty.

What's true for me is that there is no prescription of goodness. It is a feeling of doing what's right, and it is a collective feeling of doing what's right given your circumstances. We acted collectively and with one-another's approval, there was no one-off, self-gratifying action. Everyone had a say in what happened and I did what felt best between us at the time. Even if we could have acted differently, I cannot in good conscious call that a mistake.

The simple truth is that you never came to me for understanding. You never came to me at all, actually, you just took it as an excuse to tell others, without my company, your personal hot-take on our actions and motivations without talking to anybody actually involved about how you might be wrong. I only reached out to you in the hope that you would put an effort into understanding if someone else did for you, but that was never realized.

I also don't think you realize how long Seph and I actually had "played for the team" before realizing the game was rigged. We at lainchan.jp have spoken about this at length and I have no desire to repeat myself.

You describe the censorship of services affiliated with us as an organic replacement by some unspecified people. The truth is that the only replacement to speak of, a radio station, was made quite explicitly by the current administration of applechan, after it hosted content critical of him. They are also trying to replace our archive, because they have in the meanwhile derezzed its usage.

If you knew Kalyx, you would know he never desired glory. His job was thankless. There is no glory in managing an imageboard. If you want an honest idea of why Kalyx did what he did, you can see for yourself on soykaf.org. Everything else is slander.

>FOSS is bigger than any of this
The point is not FOSS, but that applechan is a $5000 imitation of what Kalyx created and what lains built. They are still attempting to imitate us by directly taking CSS and source code. But their efforts will never be original.

And finally, if we are to say lainchan's change was necessary, then my actions were also necessary.

>>573
>The simple truth is that you never came to me for understanding.
That's actually a really good point. I've been following the /q/ threads of both boards, but not once did I see someone on applechan acknowledge why lainchan.jp was created in the first place. They really have no idea and it never even occurred to them to ask.

So why should they get to decide why you did what you did? That makes no sense to me whatsoever. They just want to push their own simple narrative that "lainchan.jp changed the applechan header therefore every criticism of applechan is invalid and lainchan.jp has no valid reason to exist."

It seems they just want to feel "right" and don't really care about the truth behind these events because it's too nuanced and complicated for their liking. It's no wonder the less intelligent lains dislike lainchan.jp. They don't even understand it.

>>573
>I see the rapid scurrying for principles to justify self-gratifying cruelty.
Of course you do because you twist everything to suit your perception. I could easily do as you've done and say "Well that's just because you've made no attempt to understand me."

>It is a feeling of doing what's right
And this is what felt right? Does honesty mean nothing to you? Don't worry. I know the answer to that question. You have lied to me and you have lied about me. Do you truly believe that "I initiated this?" Nobody in their right mind would think that me telling Seph that you planned to make a new site makes this my idea on the basis that the site you were talking about making was a different one. That's an egregious twist of the truth.

>We acted collectively and with one-another's approval
That is no justification. All you're telling me is that you're all as bad as each other.

>The simple truth is that you never came to me for understanding
The very first thing I said to you, the day you did this, in the 0chan IRC, was, "For gods sake why Junk?" I told you you'd hurt me and you told me you were sorry and I said I could forgive you.

>in the hope that you would put an effort into understanding if someone else did for you, but that was never realized.
Not agreeing with you doesn't mean I made no effort to understand. How many others have you dismissed because they didn't agree with you? At the least there's kashire, I remember him making a post here the day you split. Can't find it now though and I know of more. Did he, and the others, "make no effort to understand" as well?

>The truth is that the only replacement to speak of, a radio station, was made quite explicitly by the current administration of applechan, after it hosted content critical of him.
There was uproar Junk. People really didn't like it. And it wasn't content critical of Appleman. It was just an advertisement for here. People don't like you because of what you did. "They just haven't tried to understand me. I can tell by the way they don't like me," is so hollow.

>because they have in the meanwhile derezzed its usage.
Lies. Plain and simple. There's even a post on /q/ where someone asks can I use the archive and someone else responds "Sure do whatever you like."

Oh look, Appleman made a post about it this morning, let's quote.
>You can link to archive.lainchan.jp if the content you are linking to is relevant both in and outside of /q/ without getting derezzed.

Did blatantly lying "feel right" here?

>The point is not FOSS
When people are asking for your source code the point is entirely FOSS. Some things are far bigger than lainchan will ever be.

>$5000
Are you going to give him his money back? If not what were you selling worth 5k? However you cut this you've attempted to exploit him. In general, your actions towards him have been barely above bullying. "Autistic" my ass and even if that were true it would only make it worse.

>if we are to say lainchan's change was necessary, then my actions were also necessary.
Bullsoykaf. It also turns out all the stuff you told me about him never delegating was just bollocks. I asked the rest of the mods. Not only was your little revolution unnecessary, reform was unnecessary. Lainchan, the community, has and must grow and evolve. The mods never had anything to do with it.

>>574
>not once did I see someone on applechan acknowledge why lainchan.jp was created in the first place.
Of course not. Your ends do not justify your means. Once you've done a bad thing nobody cares why you did it and they're right to, because, despite what we might like to think of ourselves, our ends are our means. You can say "I wanted to protest" but you didn't get a protest, you got a wiped server. "We wanted to give lains a better mod team" but you abused your mod powers and got lains to distrust you.

>It seems they just want to feel "right" and don't really care about the truth behind these events
Did you go and ask them? It's wrong when they don't bother to divine your motivation before they criticise you but you're fine doing it to them? The hypocrisy.

>Once you've done a bad thing nobody cares why you did it

This right here. I really dislike the way the site was made. I was never even aware of any animosity between the group here and Appleman until this drama went down. You guys should had addressed the community before even attempting to make a new site. I think more lains would have been more understanding.

It also says alot about the mod team here since you all thought you knew what was best for the user of .org by trying to coerce users over here.

Looks like it's working out swell so far. /s

By redirecting the links and renaming the site, you forced a fight over orthodoxy with the original website. Now every affiliate and spin off project has to pick an allegiance. The users suffer because of mod drama most of the community had no knowledge of or interest in. The politics has spread to affiliates. Was it worth it? No, it was not. You could have politely left and made a better image board with a new name instead of fighting to be the canonical lainchan.

Other names that work fine.
>iwakurachan
>wirechan
>navichan
>eirichan

The whole point of a name is to tell things apart.


>>573
>What's true for me is that there is no prescription of goodness.
This explains a lot.

>>574
>That's actually a really good point. I've been following the /q/ threads of both boards, but not once did I see someone on applechan acknowledge why lainchan.jp was created in the first place. They really have no idea and it never even occurred to them to ask.
This is because nobody cares why. The majority of the community had and has no knowledge of or interest in mod drama. Why would they? The only reason people on the original website care about this website is because now every affiliate and spin off project has to pick sides, since both sites are stuck in a stupid fight to be canon.

>>577
>By redirecting the links and renaming the site, you forced a fight over orthodoxy with the original website.

This

>>575
> I could easily do as you've done

I approached you directly and in private, twice. You never did that. It's no coincidence that the people who have, hold different views.

>Does honesty mean nothing to you?
I'd ask you the same, considering the lies you just told about kalyx.

Honesty does matter to me, in fact I apologized to appleman almost immediately after misleading him about the board links. If we could do this again, I wouldn't have lied to him. That doesn't mean you get to keep being a dick about it 3 weeks later.

But you don't care, because the truth is only useful when it fits your narrative.

>Nobody in their right mind would think that me telling Seph that you planned to make a new site
Except, when you told her, I never planned to make a new site. In the conversation you were in, it was an option we discussed but never went forward with. Acting like this is somehow the same project and I masterminded everything from the start to the end is ridiculous. You played a role just as I did.

>The very first thing I said to you, the day you did this, in the 0chan IRC, was, "For gods sake why Junk?" I told you you'd hurt me and you told me you were sorry and I said I could forgive you.
I actually forgot you did this. I seem to recall you talking soykaf before you said that, and it was a public channel, so I had no reason to believe you weren't saying it for show. Especially since here you are, evidently not forgiving me.

>How many others have you dismissed because they didn't agree with you?
The thread you're talking about is here:
https://lainchan.jp/cult/res/16.html
Several people posted and I responded to them. They didn't continue the conversation. And please don't bring kashire into this. He's told me in private not to mess with him, so I wouldn't.

>It was just an advertisement for here.
Does everything mentioning lainchan.jp count as an advertisement now? The radio also contained several bumpers mentioning applechan, and it still does. Does that mean we should censor it for "advertising"?

>There was uproar
if you call one person complaining about it "uproar," I can see where most of your opinions on this issue come from. iLikeBiscuits never asked applechan to link to the radio, they simply did.

>Oh look, Appleman made a post about it this morning, let's quote.
>>You can link to archive.lainchan.jp if the content you are linking to is relevant both in and outside of /q/ without getting derezzed.
This is a new policy and it contradicts prior statements about mentioning lainchan.jp outside of /q/. Pic related. This is what I meant when I said "bans archive usage." You can't link to the archive without "mentioning lainchan.jp".

I'm glad appleman is willing to change based on criticism, but I'll bet that problems will keep cropping up because his solutions do not get to the root of the issue: You cannot buy a community.

>When people are asking for your source code the point is entirely FOSS
Appleman told us he wanted to put our code on his site. There's nothing wrong with asking someone to make code FOSS, or using FOSS code, but as we've seen with the CSS applechan has produced a pale imitation of what we made. This isn't a moral argument, it's a functional one.

And as far as I can recall applechan code isn't really FOSS, since he doesn't commit much of it to git anymore.

>Are you going to give him his money back? If not what were you selling worth 5k?
He was willing to pay $5000 for a domain name and account passwords. As far as we're concerned, he still has those. Kalyx needed the money and needed someone to maintain the community, because he was in no place to do it himself.

However, a community cannot be bought and neither can the trust of it - nor can the trust of the people you'll be working with. Appleman lost that trust, and I think he realizes it. Otherwise he wouldn't be constantly changing applechan to look like us.

>In general, your actions towards him have been barely above bullying. "Autistic" my ass and even if that were true it would only make it worse.
I've never called him autistic. You should know that I don't use that word as a pejorative. What you're doing right now, where you attempt to rally people against me and kalyx with lies, that is bullying.

>Lainchan, the community, has and must grow and evolve. The mods never had anything to do with it.
The mods had everything to do with it. It's not the responsibility of individuals to conform to the changes made by a service provided for them. They are free to choose the platform they want, something applechan loyalists don't seem to accept.

I'm also getting increasingly annoyed with your usage of "you" as if everything you're against was done by the same evil cabal of people. "we" did not wipe applechan and it was not done to promote lainchan.jp. This is a response to that wipe, and especially how appleman handled it. Several parties came together.

>>574 is not me, but your second point is a question I can answer.

>Did you go and ask them?
I did. I talked to you twice, and the first time you told me you had no intentions of changing your mind. After that point, talking to you would have been useless, but I did it again because I didn't know any better. Now I know that talking to you was more than useless: it was counterproductive.

But it's not my responsibility, if someone is mistreating me, to "understand" why they are doing it. They had no business mistreating me in the first place.

>>577
>This explains a lot.
You're acting like I have no morals whatsoever. This is incorrect. I'm against making a prescriptive set of rules or principles, and then using those principles as an excuse to be a dick to people. In short, I'm against deontology.

>>579
>You're acting like I have no morals whatsoever. This is incorrect. I'm against making a prescriptive set of rules or principles, and then using those principles as an excuse to be a dick to people. In short, I'm against deontology.
No one is interested in a long winded abstract discussion of morals where you pretend to be the victim. This is not complicated. You are not a victim. You were given power with the expectation you wouldn't abuse it, but instead you went and deliberately broke the board links. That's a soykafty thing to do. You would not be happy if one of your peers did it to this site. You knew the consequences of your actions. You knew how they would be perceived. You knew better, but decided to do it anyway. It was simply wrong. This doesn't require an explanation, because it's obvious to anyone has ever delegated a responsibility or been tasked with a responsibility. You should not betray people unless you have a good reason to. Based on everything revealed so far, there was no reason to vandalize lainchan. As I mentioned earlier,
>By redirecting the links and renaming the site, you forced a fight over orthodoxy with the original website. Now every affiliate and spin off project has to pick an allegiance. The users suffer because of mod drama most of the community had no knowledge of or interest in. The politics has spread to affiliates. Was it worth it? No, it was not. You could have politely left and made a better image board with a new name instead of fighting to be the canonical lainchan.

>>580
sorry if this post is longer than yours, I have no desire to be "abstract." merely thorough. I would not mind a conversation about ethics, but this seems hardly the place for it.

>You were given power with the expectation you wouldn't abuse it, but instead you went and deliberately broke the board links.
Kalyx gave me that power, and he approved my actions ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

>vandalism
I'm not sure why someone on a punk-affiliated imageboard would be so opposed to vandalism, honestly. I mean, look at this cool artwork from people who aren't.

>You would not be happy if one of your peers did it to this site.
good thing I don't plan on ruining it like applechan was.

> it's obvious to anyone has ever delegated a responsibility or been tasked with a responsibility
appleman tasked others with no responsibilities. that's the whole point of this protest. Considering this caused him to at least delegate the radio, and replace some of the missing boards, I would say that we've had some success. It's a shame this is what it took, though.

>The users suffer because of mod drama most of the community had no knowledge of or interest in
The users suffer from a soykaf website. We're making a better one.

>>By redirecting the links and renaming the site, you forced a fight over orthodoxy with the original website. Now every affiliate and spin off project has to pick an allegiance.
You're treating this like applechan and lainchan.jp are somehow different communities. We disagree. Applechan and us are two platforms in the same community.

Between our platforms, applechan is more established, so it has more content. But we've only been growing. In the end, we will see who's right.

>>581
I'm not the guy you were replying to, but if you feel your actions are justified because Kalyx, who once owned the site , gave you that role, why didn't you step down when Kalyx sold the site?

Also, you can try to tell yourself that both .org and .jp are the community, but that is not the case. The creation of this site basically forced users to choose a side. All you've done is splintered an already small community

>>582
Kalyx's approval was only part of the reason. I stuck with applechan for months because I thought I could work with him to make the site better. For instance, I could sticky the lainzine thread, or moderate /lit/, which were both good things in my opinion. It's a shame that nobody has stickied the lz5 thread in applechan yet, but it seems to be getting bumped.

Then I wound up in a conversation with some lains (not staff) after the wipe who were fed up with the issues, and them combined with the wipe fallout opened my eyes. I knew there were problems before, but I was willing to look past them. Probably because I was a mod. That's another thing: I got promoted to admin by accident after the wipe. Some other people who have no business with that position got promoted too, and seemed to be using the powers they were given, again by accident. That's when I knew I had to leave.

I didn't plan on calling the new site lainchan.jp, but I felt that I needed a new site regardless of whether it got called lainchan or something else. Names were never that important to me, and I decided it's okay to call ourselves lainchan.

I've spoken with a lot of people who simply use both sites. I think this is the closest someone can get to not choosing a side. In fact I think the only people trying to "split the community" use applechan exclusively and their rule 6 is proof of that. But the community around lainchan is too distributed to be completely split. "Whatever you do, we are always connected."

lainchan was never about size. It was about the quality, and I think we have the capacity to do better here than elsewhere. Even with the name.

>>581
>Kalyx gave me that power, and he approved my actions
That's what Hitlers associates were telling at the Nurnberg process. It worked really well for them.

You really have no concept of morality or ethics, do you? What's worse is that you are so smug about it.

>>584
>compares a completely reversible change of two lines of HTML inconveniencing a total of 10 people over 30 minutes to participation in Hitler's heinous extermination of millions of innocent Jews and other "undesirables"
go to hell asshole

>>587
>10 people over 30 minutes
I thought this was an exaggeration but Lainchan is pretty slow so this could be an accurate stat?

>>584
way out of proportion there.

>>584
If your goal was to look dumb while making someone else feel self righteous, you did a good job.

>Kalyx gave me that power, and he approved my actions ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Either the new administration trusted you enough to let you keep that power or Kalyx didn't have the authority to give you that power when he did, so it still wasn't okay. I like the shrug. I think most of your reasons could be summed up as ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

>I'm not sure why someone on a punk-affiliated imageboard would be so opposed to vandalism, honestly. I mean, look at this cool artwork from people who aren't.
Graffiti can be cool, but breaking street lights isn't. You're closer to the second one.

>The users suffer from a soykaf website. We're making a better one.
There were more than two choices. I'm repeating the core of my argument, yet again, because you've failed to respond to it. Pay attention to the last sentence.
>By redirecting the links and renaming the site, you forced a fight over orthodoxy with the original website. Now every affiliate and spin off project has to pick an allegiance. The users suffer because of mod drama most of the community had no knowledge of or interest in. The politics has spread to affiliates. Was it worth it? No, it was not. You could have politely left and made a better image board with a new name instead of fighting to be the canonical lainchan.

>You're treating this like applechan and lainchan.jp are somehow different communities. We disagree. Applechan and us are two platforms in the same community.
They are different communities. They're two separate boards with different content, users, administration, and affiliates. There's overlap, but that doesn't mean it's all the same. I can't imagine why you think they are the same. Is it because ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ?

>Between our platforms, applechan is more established, so it has more content. But we've only been growing. In the end, we will see who's right.
That's the whole problem. There shouldn't be a need to see "who's right". You've forced the conflict by pretending to be the original based off of flimsy semantics. There was no need for any of this. You could have just made your own better image board, but instead you decided to cause as much drama as possible. Do you enjoy arguing with me that much?

>>587
>completely reversible change of two lines of HTML

>>590
>Graffiti can be cool, but breaking street lights isn't. You're closer to the second one.
Um, no.

>>559
>links
>>565
>links
>>577
>links
>>578
>links
>>579
>links
>>580
>links
>>581
>links

We hear you. We know. What do you want us to do about it? Is that seriously your only criticism of lainchan.jp? If so, I think we're doing an alright job. If not, let's hear it. I'm so sick of hearing about the same bullsoykaf over and over and over again. What do you expect to come from this? What do you want? Do you have anything else constructive to add? Stop whining.

>>590
>Graffiti can be cool, but breaking street lights isn't. You're closer to the second one.

Even if that's true (it's not), why are you still bitching about it three weeks later? If the lights on your street were knocked out three weeks ago and were replaced in less than a few hours, you wouldn't still be talking about it. You wouldn't even fucking remember it. If being redirected to a non-malicious website breaks your world, you have a pretty privileged life lain. Go donate to starving children.

>>595
>We hear you. We know. What do you want us to do about it?
I want you to deescalate the conflict by changing the name of this website.

>Is that seriously your own criticism of lainchan.jp?
Did you mean to say "only"? The name is my only complaint.

>I'm so sick of hearing about the same bullsoykaf over and over and over again.
I imagine most people would get tired of having their mistakes pointed out. This is your own fault. You deliberately chose decisions that you knew would create drama; now you get drama. You're probably going to have drama for as long as there are two websites with the exact same name. I'll quote myself again.
>By redirecting the links and renaming the site, you forced a fight over orthodoxy with the original website. Now every affiliate and spin off project has to pick an allegiance. The users suffer because of mod drama most of the community had no knowledge of or interest in. The politics has spread to affiliates. Was it worth it? No, it was not. You could have politely left and made a better image board with a new name instead of fighting to be the canonical lainchan.

>What do you expect to come from this? What do you want?
I expect you to change the name and stop generating drama. I want you to deescalate the conflict by changing the name of this website.

>Do you have anything else constructive to add? Stop whining.
The ironing.

>>590
>the new administration trusted you enough to let you keep that power
This is authoritarian thinking, and its prevalence a big reason why I stopped working with applechan.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Authoritarianism
Obviously, applechan is not some human-rights violating, dictatorial regime - unlike one of you seems to think about us - but the basic thought process applies.

Another example of it is when you said,
>applechan does not need to change. the community needs to adapt.
The community doesn't have to do what you or applechan says. I'm sorry if that offends you.

Firing me would have hurt Appleman. People's trust in him as an administrator came from the trust that he would more or less keep lainchan the way they liked it. I made a big point out of reassuring people that everything was going to be fine during the sale because the same staff who supported Kalyx would be supporting Appleman and so on. Evidently, that was a mistake on my part.

>Pay attention to the last sentence
You know, if you're gonna act this patronizing I don't see why I should even respond at this point.
>You could have politely left and made a better image board with a new name instead of fighting to be the canonical lainchan
And you could have not wasted my time, but here you are doing it.
I -could have- done a lot of things. I'm pretty sure if I had say, nuked the site, you would have a lot more to complain about.

If we're going to follow your logic from the start of your post, shouldn't you be thankful I didn't?

Obviously you shouldn't, because you know how incorrect that reasoning is. We didn't destroy your website, because we believe lains should have a choice of what they want to be a part of. If you are who I think you are, I know what you're going to say next, and we've gone over this. You ignored me the first time.

So why did we take the name of lainchan? You're looking for the same answers we gave on day one. Stop coming back to us with the same tired complaints and maybe you will get somewhere.

>They are different communities. They're two separate boards with different content, users, administration, and affiliates.
There are currently 5 telegram groups, innumerable IRC channels, several affiliated neocities pages, a whole slew of social media pages, an internet radio station, a magazine, volafile rooms, a steam group, and even more spaces on the wired I haven't thought of that we would agree are associated with lainchan. Is each one of those a separate community, distinct from lainchan, that merely overlaps? No, they're all lainchan, because lainchan isn't simply the platform you happen to administrate, it's the network of people who use all those spaces. And they do not have to use your platform. I don't know why you can't seem to accept that.

>Do you enjoy arguing with me that much?
It takes two to tango.

>>596
you can repeat yourselves all you want. it doesn't make your arguments better by any stretch of the imagination.

>>596
this is so pathetic. you've gotten to the point of correcting their grammar? give it up already, dude. if your site is better, you don't have to attack this one so badly.

>>598
>if your site is better, you don't have to attack this one so badly.
It's laughably ironic saying that here.

>>597
>There are currently 5 telegram groups, innumerable IRC channels, several affiliated neocities pages, a whole slew of social media pages, an internet radio station, a magazine, volafile rooms, a steam group, and even more spaces on the wired I haven't thought of that we would agree are associated with lainchan. Is each one of those a separate community, distinct from lainchan, that merely overlaps? No, they're all lainchan, because lainchan isn't simply the platform you happen to administrate, it's the network of people who use all those spaces. And they do not have to use your platform. I don't know why you can't seem to accept that.
This. If you think lainchan can just be bought, you don't understand what lainchan even is. Lurk more.

>>597
>This is authoritarian thinking, and its prevalence a big reason why I stopped working with applechan.
You're not being judged for defying the man to fight injustice; you're being judged for being a dick to a peer for no benefit. This is very similar to your previous arguments where you play with the semantics of ethics, vandalism, and community. You were wrong about ethics. You couldn't talk your way out of doing something wrong at the expense of others for no benefit. You couldn't talk your way out of breaking the links. It wasn't some cool graffiti; it was petty. You were in charge of maintaining the wall you were defacing.

>Obviously, applechan is not some human-rights violating, dictatorial regime - unlike one of you seems to think about us - but the basic thought process applies.
No, it does not. Why would it? Your actions didn't accomplish anything. It was just spite and a weird interpretation of the word "community". Pointing out that you know lainchan isn't some human-rights violating regime doesn't change the fact that you're relying on the comparison.

>Another example of it is when you said,
'I' did not say that as far as I can tell. Can you quote me in full?

>Firing me would have hurt Appleman.
Yeah, and I bet leaving would have hurt him too. It would have probably hurt more if you didn't mess with the original website and give the new website an identical name.

>You know, if you're gonna act this patronizing I don't see why I should even respond at this point.
Trust me, having you lose track of what we're arguing about and requiring me to point out that I already answered your complaint is far more annoying for me than what ever you're upset about now.

>And you could have not wasted my time, but here you are doing it.
True, but you've lost track of what we were arguing about. I said the users were suffering from drama. You said they were suffering from a bad site. I said you could have made a new site without the drama. And your last response is just salt because either you know it's true or you're just reacting instead of responding.

>I -could have- done a lot of things. I'm pretty sure if I had say, nuked the site, you would have a lot more to complain about.
I never suggested there was a limit on how much dumb stuff you could do. I never suggested there was a limit on my complaining. I'm sure you could have done worse things, but what you've done so far is more than enough to complain about.

>There are currently 5 telegram groups, innumerable IRC channels, several affiliated neocities pages, a whole slew of social media pages, an internet radio station, a magazine, volafile rooms, a steam group, and even more spaces on the wired I haven't thought of that we would agree are associated with lainchan. Is each one of those a separate community, distinct from lainchan, that merely overlaps?
Yes, each of those is a separate community distinct from lainchan and merely overlaping. Here, I'll repeat it again and explain it. Yes, each of those is a separate community distinct from lainchan, that merely overlaps. They're separate because they're made up of different people. They overlap, because some people belong to multiple communities. There's more overlap between lainchan and sushichan then there is between some of those communities you mentioned. They are distinct. I can't imagine how you haven't realized this. This isn't the first time its been explained. Yeah, you can talk about the communities collectively, but you're stretching the meaning of community very thin. And why do you call it the 'lainchan' community?

>No, they're all lainchan, because lainchan isn't simply the platform you happen to administrate, it's the network of people who use all those spaces. And they do not have to use your platform. I don't know why you can't seem to accept that.
I do accept that you salty tart. I don't care if people visit your dumb website, I'm just enjoying taking the piss because you and your butt brigade of mods are too close to do anything but toe the party line and too individually small to admit wrong doing. Your whack job explanation for why you named this site 'lainchan' has never made sense and has always been an obvious round about way of taking over the original despite not having any justification besides vague complaints. You are the only weirdos who collectively refer to every spin off community as 'lainchan'. You gave the fractured community a name that only described a single website so that you could try to excuse yourself for copying the name.

Prediction time. You will have drama for as long as every mention of 'lainchan' requires context. Every time someone mentions 'lainchan' and someone has to ask "Which lainchan?", the drama you created will be brought up again. This is what you wanted all along.

>you can repeat yourselves all you want. it doesn't make your arguments better by any stretch of the imagination.
If they're so bad, then actually reply to them, idiot.

>>609
Why do you think all these websites and projects should be referred to by the name of one image board?

>>559
>However, I can tell you that no author on lainzine 4 has contacted me with their discomfort.
I contributed to 2 and 3 and can tell you right now I'm extremely uncomfortable with the entire way you approached this site. It's very hostile and damaging to the lainchan community. You tried to force a choice onto the users, rather than creating a separate site and letting them choose of their own accord. You've repeatedly employed very shady tactics (exploiting board relinking, quietly making backdoor deals with affiliates, exploiting total site deletion, obsessively deleting evidence on this site, censoring posters, avoiding any criticism from community, obessesively posting on lainchan to manipulate consensus, trying to keep the archive only in your hands, trying to keep your source code and CSS closed source, etc.) to achieve your goal, which makes it very clear you care more about this chan becoming the new main site than you care about the community and its users.

A community built on such a strong foundation of maliciousness and egostroking is not one I expect to last. You have only heavily damaged our lainon community. A fork was desperately needed, but not such an awful one like this. This is not how forks or free exit is done. I'm withholding my intended contribution to zine 4 for these reasons. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Obviously anyone who chooses to still submit their content are the ones that don't have an issue with your practices, that doesn't mean no one does.

>I have only found understanding in the people who made an honest effort to speak with me and understand my position.
This is the kind of soykaf I mean when i say you don't listen to or care about the community. It's all just attacks you, sure, sure. It is very obvious the mod clique believes they are above the community, and the community are just tools or sheep that it's their responsibility to herd. You are nobody, you didn't build the community - we did - and we would survive far better without your powertripping that's now done more to destroy our community than Kalyn or apple ever has.

>>624
My contribution to 5*

Also now that I've read he thread, 8 see others have put the same issue of the whole site being a result of mod drama and egostroking at the expense of the community in better words than I have:
>>577
>>576

Look how he immediately devolved back into the circle jerk drama as soon as he feels he can identify one of the anonymous posters:
>>579
This is why I said you're only hurting the community. This is cancer. We're an anonymous imageboard, this kind of soykaf damages the board heavily especially when it comes from top down. Obviously I don't even need to say this, since it's this petty insular drama that has no relevance to the community that's resulted in the whole site being deleted and then forcbly splintered into two directly competing sites. But mods are gods and no one what's best for their users who can't think for themselves.

>>624
>It's very hostile and damaging to the lainchan community.
That's, like, your opinion man. I don't agree. Nor do the lains on lainchan.jp that aren't exclusively posting on /q/ like you. You don't speak for everyone. Stop thinking you do.

>You tried to force a choice onto the users, rather than creating a separate site and letting them choose of their own accord.
No. We didn't. If you thought that:

a) those that changed the header believed the change would last forever and

b) that the lains that clicked on those links would not notice they were on a different website

then you clearly don't think very highly of the community you say you adore so much.

If you weren't browsing applechan for the hour that the links were changed, nothing was "forced" on you whatsoever. Stop making it out like it was. No one forced anyone to post here. Every single post on this board was completely deliberate and voluntary. No one posts here by accident.

>exploiting board relinking
True.

>quietly making backdoor deals with affiliates
Asking affiliates of applechan to switch their affiliation to lainchan.jp is not shady. Their affiliation was originally made with Kalyx, not Appleman. You can't buy their affiliation.

The administrators of both this website and their affiliates have the right to change their affiliation as they please. They don't have to ask for your permission and if you think they have an obligation to make all of their correspondence public and announce the change to everyone then you are out of your fucking mind.

>exploiting total site deletion
Not true. We tried to work with Appleman. It failed. We tried a different strategy: creating this website. It seems to be working a lot better in my opinion. Obviously not everyone agrees with me, but they don't have to. If anything, you are the one that wants to coerce users into using only applechan. If you really cared about the community as you say you do, you wouldn't bash everyone that has a different opinion than your own and all of those that prefer this website.

>obsessively deleting evidence on this site
Evidence of what? One guy had a ban and delete for spamming his userscript. One fucking guy. He raged about it non-stop on four different boards. Evidence of the ban and delete is everywhere, including this website. The obnoxious catchan guy got what he deserved.

>censoring posters
Blatantly false.

>avoiding any criticism from community,
Blatantly false.

>obessesively posting on lainchan to manipulate consensus
You mean to suggest that everyone that disagrees with you on applechan is "from" lainchan.jp? First of all, you know that is not true. Second of all, we're all lains.

>trying to keep the archive only in your hands
True.

>trying to keep your source code and CSS closed source
True.

>A community built on such a strong foundation of maliciousness and egostroking is not one I expect to last.
Then why do you feel the need to come here and bash it non-stop? Either this site sucks and is going to die in a week or the community is torn apart and splintered between the two sites. Pick one. You can't have it both ways. I disagree with both, but that's my opinion.

>You have only heavily damaged our lainon community.
Again, that's, like, your opinion man. You don't speak for everyone. I think you have paranoia and delusions of grandeur. You should get that checked out man.

>You are nobody,
Rich coming from someone who thinks they are the ambassador of the entire lainchan community.

>But mods are gods and no one what's best for their users who can't think for themselves.
They do think for themselves. Those that post here decide to post here. I know you have a hard time wrapping your mind around how anyone could prefer this site, but some obviously do. Stop making it out like everyone agrees with you. They obviously don't.

Why do you even come here if the site will be dead in a week and we'll all be back on applechan? Why don't you go back there yourself?

>>614
>you're being judged for being a dick to a peer for no benefit
I was told I should be grateful for not being fired immediately after appleman bought the site, why should I be grateful appleman acted in his best interests? That's not a kindness.

>You were wrong about ethics
You or someone else told me they didn't want to hear about ethics, so I didn't get into it. But I can assure you
>I got mad, therefore it's wrong
is not how this works.

>You were in charge of maintaining the wall you were defacing.
This is where the whole me being a vandal thing falls apart: if it was my wall, I couldn't have vandalized it in the first place.
Either way, acting like changing the links for 1 hour makes me some kind of sinner in the eyes of the lord is ridiculous.

>you're relying on the comparison.
I'm not. please read the article I linked. if it weren't called authoritarian thinking, it would be wrong for the same reasons.

>you lost track of what we're arguing about
I'm not sure how I can lose track of what we're arguing about, which you identify as making 2 websites called lainchan, while simultaneously having a poor justiification for doing that. Either I don't know, or I don't have a good argument. You can't have both.

>twisted definition of community
the simple fact is that a community isn't one of the platforms it uses. If nobody used applechan, if nobody used our site, if nobody used sushichan, what would they be? nothing. I realize that, appleman realizes that, our users realize that, but you don't seem to realize that.

Now, if we're going to stop conflating the two, what you're really saying is that our platform hurts your platform. I'm not gonna deny that. We've created a competitor, which offers a better service, so now you fear losing users. Except applechan was losing users the entire time, and the whole community would continue losing users if we hadn't stepped in and made this. applechan would actually have no users at all, and not exist, if it weren't for one of our admins walking appleman through the site restoration after the site got wiped. It would also lack significant boards if we didn't create this site in protest, or if seph and I hadn't created some of them when we were still on applechan, as well as no radio if iLikeBiscuits didn't create one.

So yeah, we've been pretty successful.

>If they're so bad, then actually reply to them, idiot.
I did. that last post was just the guy making demands of us, not any actual arguments.
But you're insulting me enough to decide this is no longer a useful conversation.

>>624
I think you've been misinformed / lied to about what this place is and why we made it.
> You tried to force a choice onto the users, rather than creating a separate site and letting them choose of their own accord.
Except we actually created a separate website.
Again, people can choose which platform they want to contribute to, and they can post on both if they want to. I'm not telling anyone they aren't "true lains" (unlike the OP was doing) or not truly a part of lainchan because they don't use our site, I'm simply giving them another platform to use if they don't like applechan.

>all this is mod drama
this whole thing was actually started by a number of people who were never mods in the first place. I'm not going to identify them, because they never said I could, but you seem to value anonymity I'm sure you'd understand. Me and seph are like the spokespeople for this because one guy was consistently attaching my name to it, and seph is putting the most work into the project. It's probably also because we're more used to being the public face for things. But I was never trying to make this about me.

Some of our issues were the steady death of every site service, and the few remaining services - the IRC and the chan itself - were all under the control of one man and could be deleted by wiping the VPS they were hosted on. Which didn't have backups. We didn't delete the VPS, nor did we plan on starting lainchan.jp until a bit later. It was a response to how bad applechan has gotten, and how poorly they handled the recovery.

>he can identify one of the anonymous posters
that person has consistently identified himself before, and the person who has been consistently making this about me and not the fact that applechan isn't decentralized. And I agree with you, if his narrative wasn't entirely coming from one guy, it might have more legitimacy.

Also, I'm not sure if it was you or somebody else talking about my role on the lainzine, but I officially demoted myself from editor-in-chief before releasing lainzine 4 (you can check the credits). I also made my role completely unnecessary with this one: the git is public, the submission email is managed by other people, and I asked that everyone who contributes makes their contribution open-source as well. I had hoped to fade into the background after we got this site off the ground, but people keep specifically requesting my attention. In addition, a lot of what I do for here or the lainzine is social, which requires a particular identity to build relationships with people. .

>>632
>I was told I should be grateful for not being fired immediately after appleman bought the site, why should I be grateful appleman acted in his best interests? That's not a kindness.
Being threatened with demotion for creating /r/ so that lains could have somewhere to talk outside of /q/ before the AGM still weeks away wasn't exactly kind either. Perhaps if we made it known how petty Appleman can be there would be less sympathy for him. In the end exorbitant micromanagement will bring down applechan.

>>633
Appleman said it would be a few weeks to be fully operational though, not for the boards to be back.

>>637
That doesn't excuse him bitching her out for creating the board. It really is telling. If you can't create /r/ without his explicit authorization, then you aren't allowed to do fucking anything there as staff. What does it even mean to be an administrator on applechan if you are only permitted to do the same things a janitor can?

Mess with the best, die like the rest.