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I was talking to one of my classmates the other day and she offhandedly remarked that she didn't like computers and didn't use them. This caught me completely off guard as I've never heard anyone—especially someone in their early twenties—say something like this before. I was too stunned to know what to say so I lost the opportunity to ask her to elaborate.

I understand that I probably spend way too much time on the computer, but I still have difficulty wrapping my mind around what someone that doesn't like computers would do all day. Does lain know anyone like this? Please help.


I'd assume they use their smartphones to browse the web instead, or watch television/Netflix, or play videogames, or read books.


You haven't heard anyone say this before? I sadly hear all the time about people not using, or even more amazingly, not owning computers. Some people don't even have internet access at their homes anymore: they only use their cell phone data.
These people don't do much in life. They drink. They pretend to go to the beach. They watch television, they shop, they instagram, they snapchat.


They probably use other devices, but there are also plenty of hobbies that can be done without computers. A few years ago I had to spend a week with very limited access to computers (around a hour a day) and I've spent most of my time reading and going for long walks.


I gave up internet access for a couple years. Mostly I smoked weed, rode my bike, and read a lot.


If the net neutrality laws get rolled back, I feel I won't be using the internet in my daily life for fun anymore. Social media will get funnelled into top tier internet, but I don't use it. I don't see that soykaf being beneficial for anyone. I'll still use computers, as I'm in IT, but I won't care for the internet.


The only thing I do online is browse lainchan while downloading music, one or two times a week.
Then I listen to said music with a mp3 player, do martial arts, exercise, cook, read club, study, meatspacely visit people, attend to events and stuff.
Everything online turned into soykaf and I ended up better off leaving it out.


like this but idk if programming, vidya and weird sleep schedules is a life either.



things done without computer:
reading, friend-ing, writing (notebook comes with me everywhere), cooking cool stuff for fun and as a thing to keep hands busy while problem-solving, ice skating (while listening to books, or sometimes podcast things), in-person classes (languages in particular need this, and creative writing helps), program design (work out goals, architecture, data structures via scribbling an thinking)

there's a huge amount out there to do, really; particularly if you live somewhere that's not here.


>like this but idk if programming, vidya and weird sleep schedules is a life either
Sadly true.
But I guess it's at least some better than what normal people do. Wasting entire afternoons/nights while spending money on drinks and chicks, is not really appealing to me.


It is. It's a life of thinking and creation.
By programming you can create, in an ideal world where the only limit is what you can imagine. (Paraphrased from Harold Abelson)


I had a friend back in high school who told me of his classmate who never used a computer at home. He only read books.


this thread is really made me think about my usage of the internet, its control over my life, as well as my addiction and reliance on it. its not really something ive ever thought about before having grown up with the internet. i feel like i would be more productive/creative if i didnt use the internet at all outside of of perhaps a couple hours a day to gather the necessary information i need to finish work required of me. i do have a lot of computer related hobbies that i can do without needing the internet. programming, glitch, music production, exploits (though this one probably needs quite a bit of internet access) but it's mostly just the internet i spend time on. it would probably be easier to start by avoiding the internet for some hours in the evening. im at the luxury of not having to use the internet for anything time critical so i can "log off", but i guess the reason im bringing this up instead of doing it is because i enjoy "wasting" time on the internet. i enjoy hanging out here and the couple other places i visit. i enjoy talking to my friends all hours of the day. i enjoy scrolling through threads, being up to date on the cyb worlds i follow, or catching up on irc or rss feeds that im subscribed to.

but to what end? how much time can i give up to this addiction? where i should i draw the line? i often find myself going through threads ive already seen, hackernews links im not interested in, or browsing soykaf posts on 4chan. clearly i have a problem. do i go cold turkey and forgo my easy, more complex pleasures for something simple and difficult but ultimately more rewarding? or do i go a thousand paper cuts? i managed to cut reddit out of my life, and thankfully dont use any social media platforms anyway. i can imagine myself being less active on 4chan/hackernews/irc/various other social groups i frequent, but what about people i contact directly and talk to on a nearly daily basis? am i forced to keep interactions to a minimal?

sorry about ranting, i know this isn't exactly related to this thread, but it is what spawned this idea. ive heard of techno-cleansing before but never really thought about it in depth and the effects the internet has really had on my life. advice? thoughts? anybody else go do regular internet breaks? did you go cold turkey or just slowly cut yourself off? did you still use the computer? was it something you'd recommend?


>>281 Pretty much this.

One thing living without an internet connection made me realize was the way activities and places are tied up in my life. When I had to walk to the library or the coffeeshop to get my schoolwork done it changed the way I felt in my home. I think the internet has a tendency to bring politics, socializing, working, etc. into the places we rest and relax and feel safe. Maybe someone who knows more about divisions of labor/leisure could explain it more clearly.


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What kind of router do you have, lain? Perhaps you could block the domain and IP address of sites that you struggle with. If they provide no meaningful value to your life, I think it would be a wise decision. I wish you well.


In a way, isn't it better to work towards self control rather than censorship? But I do suppose both options could work for him.
I too know some of your feel. Chatting online is a major reason why I don't do other things I want to do. I've found the only thing that works is to simply not open up my IRC or XMPP clients when I want to do other things. I have found I can use email and do fine though, not being distracted. So I tell my online friend ``hey, I'll only be availably by email today'' when I want to work hard on stuff.
I've already mostly been free of being addicted to the web, but IRC not so much. For the web, what I do is simply check imageboards when I wake up, and before I go to sleep, only keeping a few threads bookmarked to maybe check in between those times.
I find the easiest method to become more ``productive'' (as I view even chatting as productive) is to decide in the morning: ``will I allow myself to chat today, or not? Will I check imageboards more than two times a day today, or not?'' and STICK to your decision. Once you make that decision, don't change it unless you're entirely sure you can't focus on that day. Right now I basically have ended up with an every other day schedule.


I know a couple girls who don't really use the computer. They mostly read books, and text people or use messenger apps to keep up with their friends. Some people realize how much social media can suck you in, other people don't think about it, and yet others have strange but interesting personal reasons for staying away. Privacy is sometimes a factor, other times its stuff like
>It's really distracting
>there's too much in there
>it isn't real
I dunno. I guess I don't run into people who are always offline because I'm not offline very much.



experiment with it, try removing sites for a week just to see what it feels like. remind yourself that you can go back to it at the end of the week if you really want to. sometimes you'll want to go back. other times, you won't care at all. and then you freed yourself from something that was weighing you down.


i have a generic tp-link router. originally my idea was to just disconnect it from the ethernet cable and put my phone on airplane mode/remove data but since then ive realized since i have soykaf internet which means i am basically always downloading things and so i cant just disconnect all internet access. i think now the strategy would be to implement a blanket ip ban and only allow connections to my seedbox (from which i do all my downloading) for certain hours of the day. i think the problem isn't so much that they are meaningless but that it provides an unending stream of easy to consume media that ultimately doesn't bring me satisfaction and is more of a distraction/crutch for my happiness. it makes me lazy and unconcerned about my own life, and im not sure im okay with that. thanks lain, i wish you all the best as well.

i agree, i think the end goal should be self control rather than censorship, but like you said, i can use one to attain the other.
interesting, i have a similar sort of solution for staying focused in class. i only allow myself to browse non-class related things on my phone. i dont really enjoy using my phone for extended periods of time and for some reason it also makes me conscious of the fact that im not concentrating so i tend to put it down much easier and its really benefited my ability to pay attention. the trouble with my computer is that i tend to leave it running 24/7 with everything open all the time (mostly because of the aforementioned downloads; fuck third world internet) and so it becomes a distraction box very quickly. i like your idea of deciding in the morning, but i feel like i'd forget often, plus i imagine id have a very difficult time actually sticking to it given my current success rate of exercising self control. i feel like its a good start though. honestly its something i dont even really think it, i just tend to end up infront of my computer browsing the internet mindlessly, and thats ultimately what i want to stop.

i think a combination of this and deciding things in the morning is the best way to go about it. however i dont think my main problem is websites, it's more the communities that im a part of like irc/slack/matrix rooms and chatting with my friends 1on1.

thanks for all the advice lain! i may report back with my success or failure. lets all love lain.


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One thing that bugs me about the NN debate is that it ignores the fact that the ISPs could (and probably would) easily take sides for a competitive edge. Imagine if Net Neutrality was dissolved, but then one of the ISPs out there said, "We stand by net neutrality and will always treat all internet content and addresses fairly and equally." In the absence of other companies offering that, many users would switch to that ISP, and in the world of capitalism, any unique advantage to you is a disadvantage to all of your competitors.

Now that I think about it, isn't the current system of independent, competing ISPs, and all the problems it entails, analogous to privatized postal service?


I can't say I'm very knowledgeable about this subject, but I thought the problem was that in many areas, one ISP has a monopoly over the area, so one wouldn't have any other ISP's to switch to.


yeah the free market ideology doesn't work when you have governments propping up failing monopolies and denying competition.



the difference is that a postal service can serve whomever within' a city while an isp depends on static infrastructure.

and, in lots and lots of places, a particular isp has a complete monopoly. thus, the idea that there would be competition isn't really true.


Internet-addiction seems like the next in the line: air, food, fire, society, electricity, money…

There's always been individuals and groups afraid of, disturbed by or refusing to adopt any big technological change. Some of those had and have a realistic chance of driving humanity to extinction; but so far humanity has always been smarter than some of humanity's achievements.

There used to be a time when people could live as actual hermits, growing their own food and making their own tools and whatnot, away from society, not even relying on a tribe. Nowadays most places sufficient for such use are taken, and you need society to allow you to be a hermit, and the occasional products that you can't make yourself. I understand that some would argue this is the fault of society, but it doesn't change the truth of hermit life changing from an actual to a theoretical possibility.
Some people tried to live without electricity, but didn't mind when others, reliant on it, have supported their lifestyle. Some people try to live without money, but don't mind trading whatever else for things produced by a society that wouldn't exist without money. Some people avoid the internet, but don't mind the products and services of corporations and various units of the government, both of which rely on it heavily.

The internet will likely become the next such thing. Are you really independent just because you earn enough money alone to buy your food, pay your bills, own a home and be able to move? Are you really independent because you know a routine that avoids direct interaction with a network that underlies modern society?

I don't think I am addicted to the internet. I can work, sit through long lectures, travel, spend time with family or friends without having to grab my phone. I don't even have a data plan. I don't miss it when I don't have it. I understand and agree that this is preferable to having a baseless carving, yet I am also pretty damn convinced that this "baseless carving" is anything but baseless. It's probably just how it makes unlivable conditions livable, nonviable daily routines viable - it's the things it makes possible that are addictive, and the internet itself is only addictive when those activities are not possible otherwise.
I suppose I'd be a library person if I had no internet access - it would be for the better, too; nothing to distract me from reading.


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You hit the nail right on the head. It's only a luxury until it becomes a necessity. I don't doubt in the past there being many people who lived off of alms as beggars not because they had to but because they chose that way of life and others that served some function in the community and only asked for sustenance not profit, and I'm sure these people were treated with some measure of respect. If you're a hermit today, no pilgrim is going to help you out. The priestly, ascetic class has been destroyed by the merchant class. I think people would be a lot angrier today and more able to enact real social change if it weren't for the internet as we know it. It's harder to be a slacktivist when you have to physically be there and canvass and crack open that huge phone book. Soon you won't be able to escape the internet - satellite internet will cover the globe.


>implying people would give a fuck and not just fall for the "faster youtubefacegoogle!!!"-koolaid that anti-NN shills feed them


I know a fair amount of (not old) people who don't even know how to turn a computer on. From what I gathered they mostly watch tv, hang out and go shopping.

No so long ago I spent a couple of months without internet access. For the most part I did what I usually do(programming, listening to music, reading soykaf, watching movies, hanging out with friends…). Main difference was instead of reading random stuff I read some of the many books I've 'downloaded for later'. Honestly, after a couple days it was kind of the same.


Right, that's the peasant of the human race.



> tfw you need a cookbook to prepare interesting recipes and not many people own a meatspace cookbook

> tfw you need an internet connection to find a nearby ice skating arena
> tfw you need an internet connection to download books and podcasts
> tfw you need an internet connection to find and attend a class you're interested in
> tfw fantasising about things you can do with the internet will make you want to use the internet even more

How do I escape the Wired?


assuming you live in a place like wherever I've ever lived.

>hardcopy cookbook

go to a local used bookstore, or a public library. there are many good cookbooks.

alternately, printers are things.


well, talk to people ? towns have people who know where things are. make use of them.

>books and podcasts

again, local used bookstores, public libraries. both of these are full of things. sure the selection is different than libgen or whatever, but there are things in my public library that are hella hard to find on the Net, as well.


dont uni's have advisors ? and even if not that, they at least have offices. Go in, talk to someone, be a pest. you'll find what you need


well, it doesnt take much to realize how you can do so many things without. to me, it seems perhaps your bigger issue is a possible aversion to meatspace human interaction, and less an addiction to the Net.


I don't know where local used book store is located, or if those ever exist in my city.
Neither do I know where libraries are. And as I remember from reading news few years ago, you need to register with your ID through central governmental website before attending.
Surprisingly, people in big cities don't know much about their local whereabouts, like in my example above. If you ask someone "Where's the local ice skating park" while wandering in the street, best thing that will happen is they simply ignore you.
Again, to start attending university, you need to pass exams, to register and prepare for them, you need Internet access.

This thread seems to be full of larping middle class kids who have fulfilled social life, friends, study and work that found out they have slight facebook addiction like any other normalfag today.
I am more interested in what would NEET shut-ins do without access to Internet.


pardon me for perhaps coming across as as a larper, my experience with urban spots appears massively different, as I come from cities where, if asked, people will often offer helpful directions (not all people, but its not hard to find those who will). I find people in fuel stations and corner shops are often good sources for directions.

Nevertheless, I've found many, or most things I go to by walking, wandering around.

one bumps into things, we have street bookshops that open many week days if the weather is fine, but you do not find these on maps as they are essentially transient. on top of that they're cheap as it gets, if disorderly. but cool stuff is available for the interested passerby.

I was unaware of these shops, and would have remained oblivious to them if I did not walk past them. the same goes for close to every single store I've visited in my life.

as far as libraries, I've been to several, and though perhaps in some parts to come in you are supposed to have a membership, but in some they dont care. University libraries likewise are often open to public, at least in part. Walk in, look like you belong there, be respectful of other patrons. No one will bat an eye.

If they want you to be registered, they can ask you to leave, but nothing worse. you probably cant remove items to take home, but you can make use of their reading rooms.


How is not being a hikki neet "larping?" This is not Wizardchan.


i know someone who doesn't own a computer, but uses a cellphone for most things.
They go to the library when they really need a computer.

>there are also plenty of hobbies that can be done without computers
What are some hobbies that /should/ be done without computers though?
I feel like computers can help most hobbiists be more effective.


What do you think people did before computers, anon? All that time wasn't just used for watching TV instead.


Card/tabletop games don't use electronics at all, let alone computers


i personnaly do sword training, archery, tea ceremony. i think things like DnD\music are certainly better without computers. add swimming/cycling/etc. too.
most of the world still doesn't needs computers in any way.


This really hit the nail on the head for me. I just cannot seem to stop filling up gaps in time with political intrigue and it's not making my relationships better.


>I think the internet has a tendency to bring politics, socializing, working, etc. into the places we rest and relax and feel safe
oh fug why did I never realize this


hey, don't blame "the internet", please.
it's but a tool, you decide how to use it.


Honestly, I have no idea.
At least for me everything in the way of media consumption centered around the computer, socializing is done over the internet and there's work too.

I spend basically all my time not spent moving around or with other people in the 3D realm in front of the computer. Of course, we can expand the term "computer" here for any electronic device designed for information processing.

The reason for that, I think, is that everything is hyper-centralized, this device (or rather set of devices) does basically everything related to information. You want a film? Just type it in and you can go watch it. You want to listen to some music? A few seconds of searching and you got what you want. You want to read a book? It's right here. You want to know something? Just go ask the internet.

You know, it's both such a wonderful thing, if you think about it, how much you have access to these days and how different this must be from the way it used to be only 20 years ago, but also really terrifying to think that basically everything is united in this single point of failure, by virtue of the unbeatable convenience a search engine offers.

Well of course, but you can still use a computer to play them with people without requiring them to be physically near you.

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